Wednesday, 16 June 2010

Open thread


"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."

Discuss

(sorry, really busy)

50 comments:

Anonymous said...

Which is why we apparently like football.

Onus Probandy said...

I don't really hold an opinion on the truth of this statement.

However -- one might argue that the organised violence was superior because the ideas and values were superior.

It certainly wasn't down to numbers.

Bucko said...

"The West won the world by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion backed up by its superiority in applying organized violence"

Big Hairy Twat said...

Was the Manhattan Project a superior idea or a superior method of violence.

Or perhaps both.

If you have examples of non-western powers demonstrating the same degree of adherence to law and principles (which is far from total) then this statement might mean something.

Mohammed said...

"The West lost the world not by the inferiority of its ideas, rather by its loss of the will to apply organized violence where it was needed in order for the West to survive"


"Islam won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values of the religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence and psychological pressure on a morally weakened West"

Essay question 2112

Anonymous said...

Sour grapes.

Anonymous said...

Regardless of what the *West* did or did not do, *I* didn't, so if this is some kind of liberal guilt trip about how I (as a Westerner) should sorry for non-Westerners, you can fuck off - I had just as little say in being where I as they did in being where they are.

Anonymous said...

Now where did that nice chap Ghenghis Khan originate from?

Billy Blofeld said...

"by its superiority in applying organized violence"

..... and in the case of the Spanish Conquistadors and the South Americas, the ability to spread diseases which wiped out many of the locals.

Morlock said...

Mostly agree with the Huntington quote. However -- and for a little more nuance -- have a listen to this podcast by Dan Carlin. It's a little waffly, but worth it.

Chalcedon said...

We were able to use organised violence, but backed up by superior technology. A battleship aka a gunboat usually was enough.

Demetrius said...

Ask the bloke who said this to step outside where me and my mates will put him right on a few things.

Anonymous said...

But wasn't the British Empire for example founded largely on trade (i.e. 'ideas' and intellectual capital, overseas investment in many ways), unlike say the French Empire that was founded largely on conquest?

This quote is a bit broad brush and doesn't really apply as an absolute rule I would have said. It certainly ignores the extreme violence shown by the East in attacking and conquering large parts of Europe in days gone by.

I would file this alongside 'apologising for and feeling guilty for stuff like slavery, when we were not the only, or even worst, culprits'

Ethan said...

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologise for the state of our Prime Ministerial apologies.

It's to our shame that the usual misty doe eyed hand wringing apology delivered in a Bambi like voice, creaking with emotion has of recent days been sadly lacking.

I'd like to assure viewers that this will be reviewed and a new Department of Cringe Worthy Bollocks will be created.
The new DCWB will be headed by Lord Unctious Pious and be staffed by a team of top flight apologists.
Prospective exciting new apologies being mooted are for winning WW2, coming first in the 1966 world cup and for sucessfully resisting Harold Hardrada's Peace Activists in the Battle of Stamford Bridge in 1066 before losing on away goals at the second leg in Hastings later that Year.
End communication.

Ampers said...

We exported religion to the masses...

... ergo, OH is right.

Ampers.

Anonymous said...

I think I must have missed the match being declared over because from where I'm sitting The East (China) seems to be making an impressive bid to buy the world from under The West's nose.

Colonialist said...

The White Races just ARE naturally superior.
End of....................

bofl said...

the west may have had better cannons and ships and rifles which allowed them (not us as we were not alive then) to invade other countries.....

others have forgotten something......

the wars they had!

africans,asians,north and south americans never ever fought amongst themselves did they?

Catflap said...

I think Non Westerners do forget that fact.
The Japs ended up pretty sorry for fucking with the yanks.
Millions in Indo China got pretty fucked up
The Muslims have been dying by the tens of thousands for fucking with the yanks as well.
Even the Argies forgot when they grew a pair over the Falklands.
All forgot what a horrible bunch of cunts honkys are when we get going.
"Yu Westren pigdogs wiv yur soft leeving weel die"
Yeh whatever Mr Johnny foreigner.
Make sure you've got plenty of body bags is my advice Pedro.

Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs said...

For anyone that missed today's political midday event:

Get your Guido's PMQs funnies here

Captain Haddock said...

And from precisely which part of "The West" did Sun Tzu originate then ?

Or the Samurai, or the "Kamikaze", for that matter ? ..

If anyone wants an apology for the "West's" history .. please send your name & address, together with a First Class, pre-stamped envelope & I'll send you 10p .. so that you can go ring someone who gives a fuck ..

JD said...

The 'the superiority of its ideas or values' when applied to the 'organized violence' is what did it.
Non-westerners will not understand this until they can match that superiority.

Caratacus said...

Winners win, losers lose.

He who hesitates, meditates in a horizontal position.

The superiority in applying organized violence represents the superiority of ideas or values or religion. Or something.

caesars wife said...

I think i agree with that .

Labour leadership contest was pants on NN jedward were making it up , ed showed his limitations , Dianne in fairness knew what problem was but couldnt admitt it and seemed to have flashes or north korea .Burnham was nearly plausable as working class labour but seemed more at home in the kop shouting come on England.


CW thinks labour fairy stories about stasi millionaire ecnomics getting awfully close to being busted for in an historical end .
they are still lying as well , its beyone denial , we have the corpse (uk economy) , the weapon (busting banks in friends dodgey investments ponzi scheme) , and the motive (becomeing elite wonk with senes of destiny after youve read engels ). Should just put a miniposter on jedwards head flashing game over .

woefull just shows how crap they are "we became too technocratic and focused on management " wrong ! everyone absolutely hated what Labour had done , when they sussed all the balony spin and fear spin .You lied to the British people and tried to tell them they were socialist award winners . brainwashed and lied to a whole country for political control and change . It was wonk in 97 and it took untill 2007 for people to suss it .

Kit said...

Whiny bollocks from poor losers. How exactly were the Mongols and the Ottomans and the Aztecs and the Zulus peaceloving?

Pantagruel said...

"(sorry, really busy)"

This, from the new Apostle of Idle ?

Anonymous said...

Regardless of the truth of the first sentence it's the second sentence that has the real bite.

A large section of our media certainly doesn't forget though - read any BBC article for proof of this. They positively slaver over the 'depravity' of our great great great grandfathers.

Anonymous said...

@Chalcedon

I know you from somewhere so this is where you have left ICC for!

Ken M

Captain Haddock said...

The more vitriolic the writings of the hand-wringing Left & the "Chateratti" .. the more they underline their deepest feelings of a secret jealousy of and admiration for the achievements of our once glorious Empire .. feelings which they daren't admit (even to themselves) for fear of being thought "off-message" by their peers ..

Back when I (and others of a certain age) were at school & the Atlas was mostly shaded pink .. those countries of the Empire were peaceful, safe & productive .. Then they wanted & were given independence and look at them now ..

Piss poor, riot-torn, ruled by Communist-influenced despots, unable to even feed themselves let alone export goods ..

The British Empire was far from being perfect .. but are they better off without us ? ... I don't think so ..

caesars wife said...

Having suffered a great deal of flak and arrows , for basically upsetting some people by telling them truth they didnt think they should hear (and been right on how the economy was being rodgered) CW has been a little inspired by OH and will take a break while I try to work out if the new lot are going to deliver above the useual soundbites .

Its a difficult task I can see that , but not impossible .

I dont think vat on food is a good idea , toll motorways seem to run properly at the right toll. Bit disappointed with lack of view on organics and energy , and now truth is out on offshore wind viability (and other sea energy ideas), slightly worried you might not be thinking far enough ahead , as energy is not really a wait and see option . I suppose budget first.

off for a break and change for a while .

Anonymous said...

The Quote is profoundly ignorant.

Joe Public said...

What about Genghis Khan?

Caratacus said...

Captain Haddock - spot on but you do realise that we're not allowed to say this sort of thing any more? Oh bollocks go on then.

Anonymous said...

It was the East that proffered more organised violence, i.e. all the terrorist groups in africa, all terrorist groups that were left leaning got their arms, money from the East.

Anonymous said...

If the Iroqois nation had had horses before Europeans introduced them to America, then they might well have been turning up on our shores instead.

Anonymous said...

"Open thread"?

More like open heart surgery. As painful as it is to watch as be involved.

That's my involvement for now.

Byeee.

WV:torypr - I kid you not! Lol etc.

DerekP said...

We had to have 'superiority in applying organized violence' as otherwise our superior ideas and values would have been wiped out.

Someone is going to have power and if we shrink from it we simply leave a power vacuum for some irrational, superstitious, violent madmen to use to their advantage against us.

I disagree slightly with your premise in that I see ideas/values such as science, education, rule of law as superior (based as they should be on evidence and verifiable consistent results), but I see religion as just superstition; and our politics seems to be going the way of religion in that it is not based on policy/outcome but on spin, aka 'ignore evidence and believe the fantasy message, have faith in the party whatever it does'.

Ron Broxted said...

To the gym at midday and Twinks Central...Ooh matron, otherwise known as circuits and aerobics along with dancing around like a gorgeous fairy with two long coloured ribbons. Truly my physique mocks men with healthy diets and regular exercise regimes.
OH I think Captain Haddock has summed it up best.

Biffo said...

Spot on Captain Haddock. Not a view you can even dare whisper amongst the lefties Yuman Rites & Elfin Safety brigade but a very true one nevertheless.

Jay said...

Bollocks, without the values and ideas the superiority wouldn't have been there... a long traditional of pursuing individual liberty (see Graylings book) has supported the increasingly effective use of science, men and engineering to deliver military success not to mention trade. Breaking the religious stranglehold, the prioritisation of scientific method, improvements in perception of individual soldiery and their ability to be trained rather than simply used as canon fodder. None of this was perfect, none of it is perfect but you can't separate the two and it's foolish to try.

Master of Muppets said...

So much for Idle Theory

Anonymous said...

And let's not forget those men of the East that took up arm alongside the Orcs to wage war on the men of Gondor. And that.

Oswald Bastable said...

Tommy Bloody Atkins will keeping licking their arses, even with crappy Martini's!

Captain Haddock said...

Biffo said...

Spot on Captain Haddock. Not a view you can even dare whisper amongst the lefties Yuman Rites & Elfin Safety brigade but a very true one nevertheless.

17 June 2010 07:41

Oh, I did dare Biffo .. and it cost me a job, but it was a shitty job, with which I was getting bored anyway, so I wasn't that bothered ..

My only real regret is that I no longer have the opportunity & fun of winding these PC cunts up on a daily basis ..

Ron Broxted said...

Captain Haddock what price principles? I only ask because I haven't got any. Fuck Tibet.

john in cheshire said...

Unfortunately, we in the West seem to think it is uncivilised to kick the shit out of our enemies. Personally, the more shit that is kicked out of them the less likely they are to be a threat to us. And I quite like our way of life. Thank God we have a military who can still create fear in our enemies. Let's use them to do what they are paid and trained to do. They are not policemen, they are the defenders of our way of life. Let then get on and do that for us.

Electro-Kevin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Electro-Kevin said...

The West won the world because of higher average IQ.

Anonymous said...

Posting at 6am, ex PC Haslam. Wife "busy" again?

Steve said...

Ask any of the few, the very few Zambian Africans who have made it to 60 years of age what their country was like when the Bwanas ran everything. They yearn for the Good Old Days.
No Zambian now aged under 20 is going to live to be 50. They will be dead before they hit 40.
Check the UN figures.
Go to Zambia and see how fast the grave-yards are expanding.
Look at their economy or rather that bit they have left now that the Chinese have invaded.
One day the Colonial regimes will be recognised for the miracles they wrought with so very few but very dedicated men and women.

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