Monday, 31 May 2010

Gaza Massacre Open Thread

This is an open thread on the Israeli storming of the "aid"ship.

I will not censor or moderate any comment but please think carefully before you post abuse.

My views on Zionism are well known. I hate the cunts. This is what happens when the state is more important than its citizens and the state is founded on illogical sky pixies. It becomes the ultimate terrorist.

Get stuck in.

UPDATE: Turkey is to send further aid ships.

Protected by the Turkish Navy. Turkey is a NATO country and an attack by the Israelis would be an attack on all NATO countries. This is getting interesting. After the demise of another supremacist country, South Africa, Israel only has one allie left. The leading member of NATO. Is it game over for Israel?


Guthrum said...

The Ship was on the High Seas in International Waters.

Israel just does not do International Law, its hitmen travel the earth.

Scrigg said...

did you know it's illegal for a US citizen or company to boycott Israel? >another wacky US law

Quiet_Man said...

"The state is more important than its citizens and the state is founded on illogical sky pixies. It becomes the ultimate terrorist"

Same charge can be levelled at Hamas and all the other Islamic's involved.

Sir Blogalot said...

Obviously the middle east is a very tricky debate in which to profer an opinion so I won't. What I will do is make one observation - if any other country had done what Israel did, they'd be facing a UN resolution on military action against them. I'll also ask one question, is it so unreasonable for an impoverished nation to want to break a blockade ?

Old Holborn said...

Quiet Man

I agree. Pakistan is the only other country created on a religion and look what happens.

bofl said...

5000 years of hatred.........

and they seem quite prepared to carry it on....

the israelis do actually get away with murder.......

i wonder why they seem to want to keep the fight going?

couldn't be anything to do with money could it?

Neil said...

Both sides are as bad as each other. But Israel has the resources to take the upper hand, expect it won't.

It's continued use of disproportionate force, illegal weapons and ghettoisation of an entire population is disgusting. It steals people's land then wonders why they fight back. It attacks people wherever in the world it goes with complete disregard for international law - knowing that it can always drag up the Holocaust and it's friendly American allies as justification for murder.

Of course the actions of suicide bombers are deplorable, but there are reasons people are driven to those lengths - not least because legitimate protest is met with live ammunition and brutality.

There isn't a simple solution to this problem, but it's got to start with Israel acting like a civilised nation, it's got to start with Israel facing international sanctions for landgrabs, and it's got to start with the realisation that Israel wasn't land given to it's people by god - it was given to them by the Allies after WW2. They do not have a god-given right to take what they please... and until they realise that they'll continue to face organised and disorganised acts of rebellion in the face of Military action by the democratically elected government of Palestine and the desperate people of Palestine.

We've seen it in Northern Ireland, Tibet, in mainland Europe and in many other places for years, people will fight for land they believe to be theres. They'll use whatever force they can lay their hands to, and they'll do it until reasonable and democratic terms can be reached, or one side annihilates the other.

Old Holborn said...

Land is all we have and they're not making anymore. Look at how we react when pikeys move in and take over

Guthrum said...

Collective Punishment is outlawed by various Conventions

Warsaw Ghetto/Gaza not a lot of difference.

The abscence of hope, will create another generation of young men and women willing to fight back using terrorism, then another generation, then another

Harri said...

Any race of people who talk to a brick wall , wailing or otherwise, are well and truly screwed up in the heads.

As mad as fucking hatters in fact.

Anonymous said...

There's a blockade in force because of Hamas and its continuing attacks on Israel. No Hamas, reasonable behaviour, acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist = no problems and then proper debate and negotiations can occur. Sounds reasonable to me. Why Turkey are involved is beyond me and another reason why these cunts shouldn't ever get into the EU. I'm not Jewish or Israeli and I can't stand the endemic and instituional anti-semitism that exists in the UK and among the left wing / socialist movements. Bizarre and hateful. The Palestinian problem was created by Palestinians and exacerbated for political ends by Jihadists.

sconzey said...

Making the vicious assumption that all actors were behaving rationally: why the hell would Israel want to attack an aid ship? They get sanctions from Europe and the US, and castigated in the international media. Israelis abroad are embarrassed by their passports and their discomfort punishes the government at the next election.

If they really do want to massacre innocent gazan civilians, they are in possession of far more efficient mechanisms than that.

Considering the converse: that this was not just an aid ship, and was smuggling firearms or munitions. Israel then rationally attacks it -- international ire be damned. Those on the ship rationally defend themselves against those catching them smuggling weapons.

There are more than two sides to every story, no matter how many sky pixies are involved.

Anonymous said...

OH: "anybody seen my passport? I had it just yesterday "

Planning revenge?

Anonymous said...

I'm just going to channelthe Izzy apologists before the yelling about anti-Semitism begins...

When 99.8% of all people throughout history have hated you, they're the ones who are wrong, not you.

When your way of life, your business practices and your attitudes are bywords for malevolence, selfishness and cruelty, it's everyone else who's in the wrong, not you.

When you commit religiously-inspired genocide against the inhabitants of a land because you believe that your particular made-up deity ordered you to live there, it's the religious fanaticism of the other guys that's the problem, not yours.

Israelis and apologists, consider for a second that other people may have a point. Consider that you may, in some tiny way, be contributing to the problem. Consider that you may have done something to bring about the hatred of the world.

AntiCitizenOne said...

10+ vermin dead = Good. I hope Israel can pop a few more "aid" folks.

As for turkey... Chuck em out of NATO, and stick Israel in instead.

Dame Davina Pancake said...

Well, chaps, I know the answer - let's send in Blony Tair to sort it all out in his Middle East saviour capacity. I'm sure he'll put the whole thing to bed in no time:)

Davina x

Paul said...

If Arabs lay down their weapons, there will be peace in the region, if Israelis lay down their weapons, there will be no Israel

Gordon said...

I have some sympathy for Israel, but to stop these ships on the high seas make them the equivalent of the Somali pirates and is a an utter disgrace for a sovereign state.

Anonymous said...

Most "aid" ships carry terrorist supplies, mainly funded by the EU.

verse said...

"Old Holborn said...

Land is all we have and they're not making anymore."

The Dutch might disagree!

As the flotilla was in international waters Israel's navy has as much right to inspect boats as the Royal Navy does in combating piracy. Normal practice was for aid ships to go to Ashod port and this time they didn't do so as quickly as the Israeli navy wanted. Several of the 6 boats stuck to that usual plan without a fuss. Mavi Marmara was spoiling for a fight.

The mistake the Israelis made was in being shit at storming a boat. Watch the video the IDF have released of the helicopter assault and you can see 'activists' waiting for the commandos as they slide down the rope one at a time.

As for Turkey and NATO - It's all bollocks OH. The 'One for all and all for one' didn't kick in when the Falklands was invaded. It won't kick in now. They use that when it suits NATO and it doesn't suit them in this instance.

A Zimbo said...

Cos I'll bet there is absolutely no military equipment or small arms or any other nunitions hiding in amongst the "aid".

Get fucking real!

Anonymous said...

The 'One for all and all for one' didn't kick in when the Falklands was invaded.

You're an ignorant fuck.

The NATO Charter, Article 5:

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

When, exactly, did the Falklands become part of Europe or North America?

zoomraker said...

Why not have a look at things from another angle rather than just being told what to think by the pro arab state media (BBC, Guardian, Channel 4)!

SpiteK said...

Hmm. Israel continues to flout its position as the little fuck-toy of the US. About time they got their skinless little dicks kicked pretty fucking hard if you ask me.

Doc Trough said...

If the radio comment from Fat Ari to Peres (in Hebrew) is to be believed, then ' tis the Izzies fucking the US, because they "own" it.

Anonymous said...

Israel has form with false flag operations like its attack on the USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair but it seems that with 9/11 they breached the limits of what they could get away with and now US military/senior ranks are waking up and openly talking about Mossad being involved in 9/11.

Dr. Alan Sabrosky, a former Director of Studies at the US Army War College and a marine Corp veteran, who is Jewish himself, says that he is 100% certain that 9/11 was a Mossad operation. He is also saying that the US military will wipe Israel off the face of the map once the American public becomes aware of their involvement.

Podcast of the interview:


Anonymous said...

When, exactly, did the Falklands become part of Europe or North America?

Answer: About the same time as Afganistan or Iraq.

Anonymous said...

Hopefully even the sheeople will begin to twig that Izzy and the Zionazies are not victims a all but supremacist religious extremists that have been scamming and pulling the wool over the west's eyes for far too long.
Adolf would be proud of them.

Ampers said...

I think I agree with Quiet_Man.

I have no time for Israel, but neither to I have any time for Hamas.

I think it is six of one and half a dozen of the other.

But there is one thing I do know. And those who support Hamas should realise.

There is no way, if the Arabs overrun Israel, that atomic weapons won't be used to flatten Palestine.

So, if you hate the Palestinians, keep on having a go at Israel. There will then be the certainty that every Palestinian will die.

I don't want this to happen. The Palestinians have to support Hamas or they will be killed. So I don't want ordinary decent Palestinians to die, so I keep from taking sides.


Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Is there any justification anyone here can think of for Lieberman's claim that this is legal? I mean, verse comes closest, but the difference is that pirates and torturers have hostis humani generis status. But Israel can't possibly claim they were worried that these ships were engaged in piracy or had torturers. It seems to me Lieberman's justification is simply that Israel has done it before.

Ted said...

So here we go:

A group of people are living quite happily in their strip of land. Nothing wrong in that, it is not rich by any means and then WHAM! Someone else IMPOSES another State on top of them from on high. No-one voted for that state, no-one even had the courtesy to ask those people if they wanted that state, no, the whole thing came steam rolling in and in some cases bulldozed these people and eventually herded these people of their land. One big State (a united one at that) armed this new State to the teeth, to make sure that the owners of the land could be kept of the land.

How do you think we would react if that happened to us? Given that people think we should arm ourselves at smoking bans and speed cameras, how would we react if America via the UN had bulldozed great swathes of England and plonked an Islamic State in its place (no, don’t bother, it has NOT happened yet, put your tongues back in) pushing the entire population to live the lower half of Cornwall. Let us imagine that EVERYTHING we do is at the behest of that imposed state (that has not QUITE happened yet, but…) how would we react?

Given that many of us feel that we are living under a police State if we cannot buy two boxes of aspirin at a time in the same shop, why are we so dismissive of people who are willing to do whatever it takes to regain their own fucking land from the most powerful State on the planet? How dare people complain about Capital Gains Tax when people are being blown up by attack helicopters by the biggest State the World has ever seen? How can we complain about the election of a Government when we would scoff at people who had the entire apparatus of a Government foisted on them at the barrel of a gun?

How could anyone calling themselves a ‘Libertarian’ possibly support Israel’s terrorism? How can anyone think that helicopter gunships have any role to play against civilians? We complain, rightly, about a bit of kettling. Israel thinks that having removed these people from their land means these people should quietly curl up and silently die? Why? The Palestinians have none nothing wrong except been removed from their houses.

Israel has NO right to exist because Israel is only where it is because it was imposed by outsiders to the land. These people where put there buy the various ‘concerned’ states at the time because they couldn’t be arsed doing the right thing. They could have been settled in Europe, after it was Europe that caused the problem. They could have been given empty land in America, except that the US did not want them. So the whole cabbodle was dropped onto someone else’s land. Yes the Palestinians have done pretty bad things, I doubt that they are ‘nice’ people, but given that they have suffered what they have suffered, is it any wonder?

Both as bad as each other? Yes, only if you forget the last sixty years.

Erasmus said...

"This land shall I give thee, thee and thy seed forever."
So why is he not intervening?
Surely the Isrealis still believe ?????

citant said...

"There is no way, if the Arabs overrun Israel, that atomic weapons won't be used to flatten Palestine."

Ampers, dust off your 1939 Boy's Own atlas, which is the only place you will find anything called "Palestine", and then get out that copy of the Eagle from 1956 where Dan Dare takes out the Mekon leader with a well-aimed one, and then in the morning with a clearer head try to work out just how a nuke can do the job you imagine it can.

Utterly asinine assertion - and that's ignoring the fallacy of its premise.

Nick2 said...

Verse is right - the IDF offered the Mavi Marmara the facilities of Ashod port to unload their cargo for overland transport to Gaza - reply "Negative".
I agree that Israel should respect land rights & stop building settlements. I also believe that practically every concession Israel has made to Fatah since 1993 has been discounted or ignored - Fatah at least started the first intifada because they were unhappy with what was on offer & Hamas/Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade etc have been bombing & rocketing Israel practically ever since.
Finally, Israel may be intransigent because of the enmity they face - not a month goes by without a Saudi prince or similar saying that (the population of) Israel is doomed even if they give up all the land, because they are still infidels. Check out MEMRI to see the banality of Islamic hate.

Anonymous said...

Answer: About the same time as Afganistan or Iraq.

1. NATO was not involved in the invasion of Iraq in any way, shape or form.

2. NATO intervened in Afghanistan (note the 'h') because the de facto Afghan government assisted in the organisation of an attack on a NATO member in North America.

What part of this is difficult for you to grasp? Did you actually go to school? Do you know how to read?

Span Ows said...

Both as bad as each other? Yes, only if you forget the last sixty years.

Certainly after 60 years you'd expect those neighbouring brotherly Arab states to help a bit wouldn't, not keep them in camps or allow them into Jordan or Egypt to a new life...unless of course they needed the refugees...for something.

Certainly i would think those from Cornwall would be living happily all over the UK by now, regretting they had to move but not rotting in camps on the Devon border.

Still serves a purpose. Nothing like polemic. Hundreds dead in Jamaica, Hundreds dead in Nigeria, hundreds dead in Pakistan, hundreds dead in India, hundreds dead in Thailand...yawn...20 or so people killed after attacking armed soldiers...oh, yawn..NO BUT hang on, they're Isreali pandemonium! and you have spontanoeus protest in a hundred city streets...

KGS said...

Israeli IDF soldeirs were intially armed with paint guns for Pete's sake, that's got to tell you that they were expecting sine kevek if low ball resistence, not the life threatening violence they lowered themselves into.

So the Turks have their shorts tied into knots, perhaps the Turks can show us how they would have handled these "humanitarians" if they were Kurds looking to free "Kurdistan".

Face facts, they were on there way into Israeli waters, the organizers stated that there would be no violence, just peaceful resistence, the Israelis decided to take them at their word, and armed themselves with the least amount possible.

The erred, because the Arabs/Muslims lied once more, surprise there, and they ended up not controlling the situation from the beginning.

So the IDF in trying not cause casualties, the Muslims intentionlly ended up causing even more, because they trust Euro nit wits to fall for the bait once again. And so we now see here on Old Holborn, many doing just that.

Ampers said...

Personally Ted, I would investigate which countries were responsible for establishing Israel in the first place.


caesars wife said...

Depends upon what intelligence they were acting upon , as far as I know, Israel is not stopping aid getting to gaza , it may however have some concerns about what is aboard this ship . It was after all heading staight for "the blockade" somthing the aid organisers would have been well aware of !

Still looks a little botched though , but it prempts , israel asking them nicely to go to another port and them declining.

Could have rushed to judgement OH on this one.

Anonymous said...

Just read the labels when you shop. The fruit trays tell you where its from. And vote with your purse.

I've seen avocado pears, oranges, potatoes, mangos, peppers and a host of other stuff which is imported into the EU. It takes a very few minutes to read where it comes from, then decide whether you want to buy it or not.

Not Zion Not Gaza said...

I condemn the shooting of civilians. ALL civilians.

But I must ask, would the originally intended destination of this relief convoy by any chance have been the same Gaza where on 22nd May, brave Hamas heroes destroyed a UN summer school for children and threatened the civilian workers not to return, leaving a bullet there for each one, indicating that they would be shot if they tried to repair and open it again?

Yes, I thought so.

Nick2 said...

CW - Israel did offer the convoy the opportunity to offload at Ashod & supervise their aid being imported to Gaza by land. They refused.!

Bertie said...

OH as usual quick to condemn any IDF activity, yet turns a blind eye to any "palestinian" attacks on israelis.

So if what aid constitutes rockets etc, just so long as the Israelis get some OH. Shame on you.

Kitler said...

Who gives a fuck? Everybody knows the Isrealis don't fuck around and these flotilas directly challenged them. Well they got what they asked for.

I don't like Russia much but how far do you think I'll get if I try to show the KGB (or whatever they are called now)who's boss. Not very thats how far so I leave them the fuck alone.

Fuck Isreal and fuck Palestine. They are both stupid sky fairy loving retards and the sooner they both kill each other off the better.

Anonymous said...

Fuck the aid scumbags.
Fuck Turkey,

Shema Yisrael, Adonai echad!

Guthrum said...

By the IDF's insane logic the feel they have the right to attack ships in the Channel.

The doble standards over the Haganah financed Exodus and this beggars belief

Kitler said...

The IDF use insane logic because Isreal is insane. Everyone knows this yet you all act surprised when the IDF do what th asshole. I'd like to punch him in the face. e IDF were obviously going to do.

There is a guy in my street who is a violent asshole. I'd like to punch him in the face but I don't because he'll kick the fuck out of me.
I assume you are the kind of guy who would punch him, get a kicking then run round crying about how unfair your kicking was cos you were smaller and he should have taken your punch with good humour.

Kitler said...

This is what I meant to type, sorry

The IDF use insane logic because Isreal is insane. Everyone knows this yet you all act surprised when the IDF do what the IDF were obviously going to do.

There is a guy in my street who is a violent asshole. I'd like to punch him in the face but I don't because he'll kick the fuck out of me.
I assume you are the kind of guy who would punch him, get a kicking then run round crying about how unfair your kicking was cos you were smaller and he should have taken your punch with good humour.

caesars wife said...

Nick2 not allowing it near ashod may also mean they are weary of it , however sensible aid org would have allowed thorough search offshore , somthing still not quite right about how the aid org have done this , says cement, building materials and aid , I mean why not let israelis ok cargo in first place , for the good of peace etc etc , rather than provoctively try and run a blockade ??

Other Steve said...

The Israeli armed forces need constant conflict, it's the only thing that sustains the inflated status of their generals.

Should we be surprised they have an outrage or two ever so often to make sure enough people really hate Israel enough to justify the continuation of the generals's position?

Nick2 said...

CW - the 'peace protesters' said on TV that they were looking for martyrdom, or failing that, delivering aid to Gaza.

In another clip posted today a member of the Egyptian Association for International Law stated that Turkey and other countries should use aid convoys to transfer weapons to Gaza.

So, it seems that many people associated with the convoy were looking for confrontation. I don't know if the IDF offered to inspect the ship offshore - but I doubt it as if there is anything incriminating it'll probably be buried under approx 10,000 tons of humanitarian assistance, and practically impossible to find without unloading the ship.

OH's codpiece said...

It is absolutely outrageous that the IDF have stormed a ship full of peace-loving, humanitarians when they should have just sank it.

Every sane person wishes the middle-east had more fine examples of nationhood along the lines of palestine & syria & lebanon & Iran. The last think that region needs is a democratic nation run by the finest example of PR we have, filled with Nobel prize winning scientists, whose inhabitants can trace their ancestry back to the very earliest eras of civilisation.

Islam, with it's love of life & liberty, should be masters of that region and anyone else who claims otherwise is a pig & a dog who should be butchered. So I'm with OH on this one.

Ted said...

@ Span ows

Yes of course how silly of me. Once someone takes your Country, you should just move to another one, then perhaps another one after that, perhaps move to another or another, or...

That is what you would do, eh? If you came home and found squatters in your house, you would just go round to a mate's house and chalk it up to experience?

This problem was not created by fellow middle Easterns Countries this was directly caused by the UN imposing an brand new Country over an established one. How they the rest of the Middle East have acted in no way excuses the UN imposing State onto another Country. You seem happy about that, well fair enough, just as long as it never happens to us? At least the Palistine people have a spine, if nothing else.

BTW I meant that the entire British people be shoehorned into Conrwall so that the new Country could flourish. Still happy about that?

Anti-Zionist said...

Bertie said...

OH as usual quick to condemn any IDF activity, yet turns a blind eye to any "palestinian" attacks on israelis.

So if what aid constitutes rockets etc, just so long as the Israelis get some OH. Shame on you.

31 May 2010 21:08

LOL, FACT is that those "rockets" are utterly ineffective and short range. It's only the edge of the town of Sderot that is reachable and the Israelis could easily relocate the few affected citizens a few hundred yards east out of range. So much for the hyped "rocket threat".

The reason is doesn't is that without "rocket attacks" (lashed up gas cylinders) Israel wouldn't be able to endlessly whine "victim". Pretending victimhood is the modus operandae of zionists.

What they want is to steal not only the lands of the Palestinians for their racial zionist Heimatland but also to steal the gas from the gas fields of (aptly named) Gaza.

Note the ratings of this article. The Hasbara students charged with silencing criticism and spreading pro-Israel propaganda are at work.
(Google "Hasbara students" if you don't believe me)

Anonymous said...

Why do the birds fly upside down when they're over Israel?

Because the country isn't worth shitting on.

Anonymous said...

Zionist are again making sure that Jews get a bad name.

If Jews are hated they are more likely to emigrate to Israel.

I don't understand how dimwits can still support those Crackpots.

Anonymous said...

The Jews will soon have to ask themselves why they have been expelled from every European country at least once (check it out). It is only their massive financial influence throughout the Western sphere that is allowing them to constantly play the victim and hence get away with murder. It looks like their reign of terror may be coming to an end at last - and the Arab hatred for them will abate of its own accord.

Anonymous said...

@ codpiece

The relative attributes of the various Middle Eastern people are neither here nor there. The can do what they want in their own fucking Countries. Isn’t what Libertarianism is supposed to be all about? I do not care what they do or not do in their own Country, because, and here is the kicker, that is exactly what I would wish for this Country. I do not want interference from any other Country or group thereof. The people of the Middle East just want left alone and if we do leave them alone and they turn on themselves like rats in a sack, the so be it.

This is not who we like or dislike, who share or do not share our values, a Country does not gain legitimacy or deserve to be treated better or worse depending on how many Nobel prizes they win. I have no interest in how many Nobel prizes Palestinians have won or even came close to, then again I have no idea how many Zimbabwean farmers have either, but the State stealing their land was wrong too. Mugabee used weapons against them in the process, given that these farmers would have attempted to defend themselves against the tyranny of the State, I suppose you would have defended Mugabees right to defend his troops and you think okay for those farmer just to walk away?

Irrespective of how ‘naughty or nice’ both sides are, clearly to me at least, it can never be right just for any State to impose itself over a land, just because they happen believe it was promised to them by a sky pixie. And nothing can ever justify stealing land the way the UN did. Nothing, no statute of limitations, no bad behaviour, the relative worth of the cultures nothing, no terrorism, the behaviour of the neighbouring states, nothing. These people have been forcibly removed from their land at gunpoint, the have all the aces as far as I am concerned.

Ted said...

@ Bertie

The difference is the Palestinians are trying to remove an invader from their Country. Like the French resistance when attacking Germans, like we would have done, if Churchill was to be believed. He promised we ‘would never surrender’, I wonder if we would have fought the last man? Would we have used terrorism to achieve our goals? Even after sixty years, if it had went that long? I think so, even if some of the people I share this Island with (I hesitate to use the term ‘fellow Countrymen’) would rather we all moved on a made a fist of it.

I cannot blame them for attempting to use whatever they have to hand to defeat an enemy. I saw pictures that suggested that people had catapults to defend themselves against guns. Futile? Of course, but better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.

Span Ows said...

"Once someone takes your Country"...

Rewriting histroy Ted?

"BTW I meant that the entire British people be shoehorned into Conrwall so that the new Country could flourish. Still happy about that?"

You were nearer the first time. Perhaps West Dorset shoved into Somerset whilst the Christian brothers (and remember they are Christian brothers over and above their county allegiance) in Somerset, Devon and Hampshire kept you in camps and the world gave you billions that you spent on arms to attack south Dorset and paying the mighty 'leader' and his big family and they all live in a nice hotel in London and go shopping whilst ...well you get my drift...

Old Holborn said...

Let's get one thing straight.

The IDF and Mossad are not there to protect Jews.

They exist to protect the state of Israel.

Most Jews know this and refuse to live in Israel.

a wise move.....

Span Ows said...

The difference is the Palestinians are trying to remove an invader from their Country.

LOL! Well that settles it, you are rewriting history.

Old Holborn said...

What next? Proclaiming the KGB were defending ordinary Russians?

wise up.

Dioclese said...

OK - let's cut through the bull:
The Isrealis :
(1) gave clear warning of a blockade,
(2) said they would allow the ships through after they had pulled into an Isreali port for inspection,
(3) boarded the ships after they refused to stop
(4) were attacked when they boarded

Agree or disagree, the people on the ships were either
(1) Trying to stand on a principal,
(2) Being used to make a political point,
(3) Extremely stupid, or
(4) All of the above

I have no axe to grind on either side, but they can't say they weren't warned, so you have to ask what the hell they were up to or what they had on board they were trying to hide.

Old Holborn said...


International waters are waters.

Ted said...


What is your point? Israel only really exists because thousands of European people were dumped there in ten years.

caesars wife said...

Oh dear European Central Bank ECB has warned of substantial losses in european banks , due to erm bad loans ,now where have heard that before ?

Now if the ruin hadnt sold off half the gold reserves things would be loverly !

Thud said...

The Turkish military will not be used as a weapon to punish Israel by its own Islamist government as the struggle between the military and govt will soon come to a head.As for the IDF and the 'peace'activists...they didn't kill enough.

Anonymous said...

I wonder who it is that reads teh trails of commentary in this place. For there are many fine observations to be found. But alas there is just one aspect I did not see (excuse me if it was there).

None should neglect to remember that these intrigues and deceptions are spun before us from all angles. But underlying the whole series of scams, the simple truth is, that the region holds geo-strategic importance. Thus if you descend from the most avaricious & warlike tribe, your strategists will be devoid of moral, ethical or compassionate faculties, preferably taking pleasure at the suffering of thier victims. These crypto people of judea are no such thing at all, they appear in all respects to be the children of draco.

Israel has become the Hex upon the entire sphere, those that are its manifestors, agents & league of friends, brotherhoods & other hidden Kabals. A single thread flows through & it is reinforced as each day passes.

As such, these accursed entities are an anathema unto themselves & will by thier own hand, cause thier own end.

They are either part of the family of the humane, or they are not. If they regard us as being lesser species, then they proclaim themselves to be another species. If they believe that the incessant & repeated of thier own villification is not related to thier own venality & practices, then they are blind as can be.

Ofcourse the alternative is that they regards themselves as our predator & parasites.

I doubt that these settlers could live in peace with each other over time.

What they have done to the people of the Holy Lands has nothing to do with Sky Pixies, it is the ideology of global domination where thier law is imposed with a rod of iron.

What they have done there, is not a reflection of the past, but a repeating pattern that grows in it reach & cruelty to all living things. Thus that place of walls, watch towers & barbed wire has re-emerged, armed to the teeth & clamouring for more war.

Iraq was its prize, the place of Enlil & Enkil. Afghanistan, to weaken the allied troops, profit from its favoured resources & encircle its current foe Iran.

The Yemen & Somalia gateway has not escaped its fictions & terrorism.

Where next?

Kitler said...

At least Dioclese gets it. The rest of you need to grow up and accept that Isreal is hard as fuck and will fuck anybody up who pisses it off.

You don't have to be an Isreali supporter to understand this basic fact.

If Hamas are happy to use ineffective rockets to provoke the slaughter of their own people then that is their business but a noble struggle it is not and claiming otherwise is just ridiculous.

verse said...

Anon 18:24,

Thanks. I didn't know that.

Gordon the Fence Post Tortoise said...

I don't know how many of you recall the days after the last Israeli incursion into Gaza (Cast Lead) and the uncontrolled reporting from Gaza itself that lasted sadly but a brief few hours ...

Normal people expressing their contempt and loathing for *both sides* and pleading to be allowed to go about their lives unmolested by either side - this didn't fit the media agenda - "normal service" - has been resumed.

This miserable patch of scrub has long history of rule by various regional powers dating back several millennia (OK - Wikipedia quote - but apt) - and it's now a brutal playground where the locals are being pushed forward as proxies in a broader conflict.

The people of Gaza deserve a break - they are impoverished in a way that few Europeans understand and the actual people are roundly shat on by pretty much all sides.

The tinfoil hattery and pro/con braying arguments here are just a poor show really - useful idiot repetition of the agendas set out by parties irreconcilably at odds with one another - while the actual people suffer.

Q: Why did the PLO get hounded out by the locals?
A: Too btutishly sticky fingered by far.

And the new boss? - same as the old boss - but with a extra dash of determined brutishness run on a short leash from Tehran (You want bogey men? - they've shedloads).

We really don't hear much from yer actual frightened and sorely abused Gazans at all.

Just shedloads of recycled "stuff" from the horribly partisan media shitstorm that envelops the far end of the Med.

The poor fuckers in Gaza have my sympathy (and some of my money, I think...) but Hamas good / Yids bad = sucker fodder.

Ashdod is 15 miles from downtown Gaza City - let's see if the Yids deliver the goods if they've seized the ships....... which, if they have *any* sense is what they'll do.

I feel on fairly safe ground saying that the next nuke (something like this?) to be detonated on a major urban centre will be delivered in one of these

Yep - don't blame the Yids for being twitchy - particularly where a bunch of externalising mad mullahs are concerned - no siree. Fine mess the rest of the world has made of the Middle East - that's a fact. Let's get the history of the area straight eh? Israel is a contrivance , but so is Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,Lebanon,UAE. and within living memory these places didn't exist as they are drawn today - and, to be sure, many inhabitants of these places are as badly treated as the Palestinians, - just don't talk about the Kurds. The infantilism that characterises the debate doesn't help in the slightest.

All this guff about the "freedom of the sea" is twaddle - try it sometime - but, I can save you the trouble - it don't work like that >anywhere< period...

A small but telling thing maybe - The Palestinian Red Crescent have been predictably quick to condemn the Yids but I note that they don't seem to claim any of their medical supplies were on board... happy to stand corrected there but - looks like hedging your bets somewhat , having cake - eat it etc...

All quite convenient when European public direly need someone to hate, rather than their own leaders... innit? Sucking the Turks in while the Greeks are being counted out after a Goldman Sachs sucker punch - swirling cauldron of intrigue... running sores and old scores to settle all over the shop......

Rebel Saint said...

This video says it all really.

Humanitarian aid. My arse. Suppose OH will say they were just trying to send humanitarian aid to the twin towers next.

This is the only language the Islamofascists understand. Congratulations on defending your liberty Israel.

Gordon the Fence Post Tortoise said...

Oh yeah OH... the nearest NATO country (Greece) mucking in to help the Turkish Navy ??

Ho!ho! - obviously never spent time on Kos then eh?

Smyrna still burns.

Still this might get messy, £5 says that if the Turks follow through on the bluster = the Yids demolish the harbour at Gaza.

And will someone tell me exactly what are the Egyptians up to?

Gordon the Fence Post Tortoise said...

Who actually paid for the charter of the ships and what deal did the shipping companies get ??

This wasn't entirely a charity cruise gig - that much is plain.

KGS said...

International maritime law allows for a blockade enforcement in International waters as long as the blockade does not restrict traffic to neutral ports.

So Old Holborn is wrong when he states: "Eh..International waters are international waters"

Israel was well within its rights to enforce that blockade, and had not prepared for the Hamas friendly activists to go back on their word of it being a solely non-violent mission.

The Muslims lied and people died, don't blame Israel.

A Hippie said...

Why can't they just all live together peacefully in one land? Surely they're all descended from the same stock?

Henry Crun said...

Anon 21:03 wrote:
"I've seen avocado pears, oranges, potatoes, mangos, peppers and a host of other stuff which is imported into the EU. It takes a very few minutes to read where it comes from, then decide whether you want to buy it or not."

Don't buy any of it from Africa, Anon. Just imagine all those nasty black hands picking your fruit and veg.

Reimer said...

Anonymous said...
"Answer: About the same time as Afganistan or Iraq.

1. NATO was not involved in the invasion of Iraq in any way, shape or form.

2. NATO intervened in Afghanistan (note the 'h') because the de facto Afghan government assisted in the organisation of an attack on a NATO member in North America.

What part of this is difficult for you to grasp? Did you actually go to school? Do you know how to read?"

That IS you, isn't it, Mr Aaronovitch?

You loathsome shit.

Ethan said...

Couple of observations.

Six ships boarded. No casualties or trouble of five of them - If the IDF was on a 'murderous rampage' as the useful idiots and liberal media of the west alllege then isn't that just a bit odd?

On number six if they had diverted to undergo proper immigration procedures and landed their aid in a Israeli port for onward transmission then this would not have happenned. Proof being the other six vessels.

Therefore I submit this 'media circus and righteous international indignation' is EXACTLY what the Hamas Terrorist supporters of the IHH wanted. IMO this was nothing to do with 'aid' and 100% to do with creating a PR stunt.

Looks to me that most of you and the IDF have been suckered. Didn't Lenin coin the phrase 'useful idiots'.

AngryDave said...

When Islam emerged in the middle east (approx 750-800 years ago) it adopted a policy of convert or kill, a policy it still practices around the world right now. The dominant religions of that region at the time were early christians and jews. So the muslims killed, converted or scared off everyone else.
When Isreal was formed by displaced jews, it was formed as a democracy and not a jewish religious state. This is where the problems begin. With the rest of the region being islamic religious states, and hating them for these reasons, the terrorist attacks started.
Isreal's muslim neighbours hate the fact that they have jews on what they believe is their land and want to kill it's population. Despite the fact that they took the land in the first place by killing or converting it's inhabitants.
When suicide bombers blow up school buses full of kids and terrorists fire rockets at houses, the victims are civilians going about their lives. Those terrorsts then go and use 'their own' as human shields to drum up sympathy for their 'struggle' from the international community. as an example, if your enemy has the ability to fire shells (at innocent citizens) five miles into your territory, then you must push them at least tha distance from your borders to protect your citizens. Gaza is being used as a base for terrorist activity in Isreal, and all isreal is doing is protecting it's borders and people. Terrorists cannot complain because their adversary is stronger than they are.

Turkey is also a islamic country, and is blatantly supporting acts of terrorism against Isreal, by supplying terrorists in Gaza.
They are just pissed that they gt caught.
If they were not carrying weapons, and only aid as they claimed, then they would not have objected to being searched and behaved the way they did.

Greg L-W. said...


how much longer does the world have to tolerate these Zionist filth and their state sponsored terrorism with the cowardly IDF - All too willing to use one of the worlds largest airforces to bomb, maim, kill and intimidate virtually unarmed women and children.

These vile people creating their own Warsaw Ghetto of fear walled and fenced in the indiginous people are attacked and bulldozed, denied work and basic amenities.

Surely the time has come for the Zionists to be driven into the sea and picked up in sewage skimmers and dispersed now and for ever - to leave the Jews and the Muslims and the Christians and those with no superstition or belief to live again in harmony and relative peace as they do in most Countries around the world.

If these vile occupiers will not go peacably then it is the world's duty to drive them out by what means are needed.

These are the scum that are causing hatred of the decent, law abiding Jews that can be found from Constantinople to South wazeristan, the Yemen to The Taklamakan. Friend, Neighbours, Doctors and Traders throughout the Middle East and Asia.


Ethan said...

Greg LW wrote "how much longer does the world have to tolerate these Zionist filth"

So lots of grey area there then.
Please try not to be so even handed eh?

Kitler said...

The world will tollerate these zionist filth until someone tougher gets rid of them. Until then you have to accept that if you challenge the Isrealis you will get hurt.
Just like if you live in Palestine and stant up to Hamas you will get hurt.

Stop acting like babies.

Spartan said...

Airforce making rocket and missile attacks on a people that have little defence against such armament, incursions into another country using tanks and other hardware? Over 40,000 dead.

No, l'm not talking about lsrael, it's Turkey's military action against the Kurds(PKK)

verse said...

If only Mavi Marmara hadn't had more than 700 passengers on board, they could have got much more aid supplies on.

Gordon the Fence Post Tortoise said...

Greg L-W @10:25
Kitler @11:01

Hey boys, time to read a book or summit.

Soooo - you think removing Israel will make a positive difference?

No Israelis in sight here..... or here, or here..... and rather a lot of other unfortunate incidents.

All part of the Zionist orchestrated NWO? Seems to me the locals don't need much help fucking up thir own folk - and the Turks? oh yeah, those paradigms of tolerance and virtue - ask an Armenian or a Kurd about that.

And people wonder where they recruit suicide bombers from? It is said that human DNA is 99% chimp and 25% bananas - slam dunk I think.

Anonymous said...

I´ts all a question of scare and control !
one of the mothers are going to let rip and i´ve got two tins of fruit cocktail buried in the garden???

Kitler said...

Soooo - you think removing Israel will make a positive difference?

It would make a positive difference to its enemies and a negative difference to its friends. It would not benefit me as I am planning on holidaying there next year.

The only point I am trying to make is that if you take on someone harder than you you will get fucked up. The moral highground is not an effective shield against bullets.

Catflap said...

What is the solution?
Plenty of fucking and making babies is what history has shown works best for a nation,peoples and religion to prevail.
That is why the UK is finished.
100,000 terminations a year.
The bright industrious people not having enough kids.
The thick lazy cunts having plenty.
My advice to both sides in Israel/Palestine.
Get Shagging.

Anonymous said...

@ AngryDave, 09:43
"The dominant religions of that region at the time were early christians and jews. So the muslims killed, converted or scared off everyone else"

Absolute nonsence because there wasn’t a jew that had an ancestor that ever put a toe in the Holy Land, not only in Old Testament history, but back to the beginning of time.
The only Semites in the world are the Arabs. There isn't one Jew who's a Semite.
92 per cent of the world's population of those people who call themselves Jews, were originally Turkothean Mongoloids and there was no such word “Jew” because the letter J doesn’t exist in Latin.

@ Span Ows, 31 May 2010 23:33
“The difference is the Palestinians are trying to remove an invader from their Country.”
"LOL! Well that settles it, you are rewriting history."
No You are.
Do you know why the Jews were driven out of England? King Edward the First in 1285 drove them out, and they never came back until the Cromwell Revolution which was financed by the Rothschilds. For four-hundred years there wasn't a Jew. But do you know why they were driven out? Because in the Christian faith and the Moslem faith it's a sin to charge 'rent' for the use of money. In other words - what we call interest [usury] is a sin.

Span Ows said...

Not only England Anon, many European countries have removed and persecuted Jews throughout history. That isn't the point I was making: which was in answer to Ben suggesting the Palestinians were ousting invaders.

Ted said...


Of course they are attempting to oust invaders. These people came from Europe. Palestine was partitioned against by the UN and against the will of the people who actually had the temerity to live there. They were removed from the land and replaced by something like a million and a half people over a ten year period. All done without a by your leave and at the behest of a proto World Govermnet.

According to Wiki, here are a list of Countries that decided the fate of Palestine:

Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Belo russian SSR, Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Iceland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Sweden, South Africa, Ukrainian SSR, United States of America, Soviet Union, Uruguay, Venezuela.

With these three Countries changing the mind:

Haiti, Liberia, Philippines.

So the South Americans were allowed to condemn a million people to losing their land? Yeah that sounds fair enough. Sure thing, no-one need concern themselves with morality here, eh? Nothing to see folks move along.

I wonder how the people of say, Luxemburg would have felt if they had been bulldozed of their land and Israel set up there instead…
…and on the strength of Countries thousands of miles away.

Ted said...

@ AngryDave

Nice bit of a smokescreen there, shame none of that matters a fuck. This isn't about who are the better culture this is about theft.

If I steal a credit card from a guy in the pub, the police would not ask us what we intend to with it. If the owner says 'spent it on booze' and I say 'by a nice jacket' the coppers don't think about and give it to the person with the best answer, they give it to the person who it belonged to. Palistine was stolen By the UN and it was given away. The Isaelis are guilt of recieving stolen goods.

If someone sells me a stolen car and I do it up and the police come round, the would not say 'oh you have made a nice job of that, better that the last owner, you keep it son'

Span Ows said...

Reposted from blogpost above this on homepage! (have corrected typos!)

@Ted, sorry, I now realise you meant me when you wrote Stan! OK point taken...I am not saying the situation is ideal, far from it, and from that same source you see that (yet again) a British withdrawal has played a role in causing the polemic (as in Kashmir/India/Pakistan) Britain abstained but the list you supply tells us that the world powers at that time (US, Soviet Union, France and the war-winning anglosphere of Australia, NZ, South Africa etc) were also in that nearly 3 to 1 in-favour vote. Of the 23% against** the only surprise is India and maybe Greece, no doubt this latter foreseeing a Turkish renaissance and the former was still with it's large Muslim population and in the genesis of it's own problems.

(**Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen)

As I say, the situation is not ideal but it's what there is. Had the Arab nations taken in the refugees (after encouraging many of them to leave whilst they pulverised Israel...oops, didn't work well did it?) and accepted the situation they be a darn sight better off now. The whole Middle East crisis could have been ended ages ago if they just stopped being so obtuse (racist) about the whole thing, they still hope it's a bad dream and Israel will go away so they keep the Palestinians as refugees to maintain the polemic.

Anonymous said...

Oh, dear, Old Holburn is an anti semite. Shame, I hoped you were better than that. That'sme out of your blog.

The west had better wake up and realise that Israel is the only nation fighting a militant, anti Jew, anti Christian ideology - Islam. The Israeli army is trained in legitimate use of force and carrying side arms and paint ball guns (which the Israeli commandos were) is not overwhelming force.

Hammas and Hizbut t'ahrir (UK based anti western,Islamic-supremacist extremist group) love you all for you are their friends. When they come for you and your children in 10 or 20 years time, you'd better be ready to fight.If you don't, then the west, and Christian-based, anglo-celtic Britain and its society and culture is a gonner.

Good luck

Old Holborn said...

If you think Israel gives a shit about Christians or any other religion than extreme Judaism, best of luck.

Best ask for a full refund from my advertisers.

Ted said...

@ Span

Soryy about the the 'stan' thing, that will be the 'daily sex' kicking in.

Hold on a minute! The 'World Powers' voted of whether or not to give away someone elses land? You don't think that is a bit odd or strange? What if me and two of my mates voted (by a margin of three to one)to surchage fifty quid from your wage packet? Not ideal I'll Grant you, but best not kick up a fuss, eh? Just send us the money and we will say no more about it...

Who gave NZ a mandate to decide what happens in the Middle East? Basically, the 'World Powers' decided among themselves that they had a right to vote on whatever they wanted and hey presto! Who gave them the right to carve up another people's Country? Think about what you are saying for a second. A group of ambassadors vote in the UN to flatten another Country and remove people from their land and houses and that feels ok to you? Seriously? Forget the Muslim/Jews angle for a second. Imagine another planet where you know nothing of the history of the Countries. Leaders of Country A,B,C,D,E and F decide to carve up Country S , placing refugees from a war between AC and D and push the people who happen to live there onto the outskirts of that Country and when things get sticky ABCDEF assume that TUVWXYZ should simply absorb the refugees from S in order to accommodate the Refugees from Country D? Not only that but S have lost their land, but are wrong to kick up a fuss, because ABCDEF are quite happy with the arrangements and S should not be 'obstuse' by wanting their own houses back?

Not ideal? Well we agree with something!

Span Ows said...

Well it became less ideal when the miffed "against" decided to start a war as soon as they could...losing it emphatically and fairly quickly, giving those new "Israelis" an excuse to pinch a bit more land...spoils of war. Remember 33% of those who were there to start with were Jewish anyway (and the Arabs were not forced to leave) were soon boosted by hundreds of thousands of Jews from the Middle East and North African Arabic countries (kicked out mainly...who'd have thought it, going to a place where they spoke a different language and had a different culture) and those Arabs that fled from the new Israel (to countries where they spoke the same language and shared a culture) hoped to return once the slaughter of Jews had finished found out they'd been duped by their Arab brothers. Ah well.

Anonymous said...

It looks as though the Mavi Marmara was about 41 miles off the coast, that is 13 miles beyond Israeli waters (even assuming you accept Gaza as part of Israel!), so on the face of it the Israeli action breaches international law.

No doubt the US will be dispatching a task force in the near future to deal with this state piracy.

Those Somalis must wish they had Israeli passports!

Ted said...

Span ow

In other words if Muslims in this Country decide that they would liked living in Europe but would prefer living in a single entity rather than spread of a whole continent. They would rather convert a large part of Englang into a new Country Say from Manchester to Bristol and managed to get tha 3 to 1 majority at the UN that would fine to you, because Franc, Germany Holland, Pakistan and Bali had all voted for it?

Yeah, Right!

Kit said...

Anonymous, international law allows for naval blockades in international waters. Check the facts before trying to play the lawyer, otherwise you are left looking like a limp dicked twat.

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