You can stick your CCTV, Police State, wheelie bin Stasi, DNA, WMD, “Social Cohesion”, benefits for all, guilty until proved innocent, don’t do that it’s illegal now, can’t say that, ID cards for all, where are you going, what have you been saying/doing/reading, can’t photograph that, how very dare you, golliwog banning, we know where you live, we’re watching you Soviet Utopia up your arses. Sideways.

Wednesday, 16 December 2009

Jacqui Smith's irregulars

When I was a teenager, I must admit to being a bit off the wall. I went out for a packet of fags once and ended up in Africa, but that's a different story. Aged 19, I decided to find out for myself if the "Communist Bloc" was as horrific as I'd been told or whether it was a romantic paradise of bumper gain harvests and camaraderie for all.

I bought a plane ticket to Prague, obtained a Visa and set out to hitch hike alone through Czechoslovakia for two weeks.

The first thing that hit me after landing was the amount of people in uniform. Everywhere, everyone was wearing a uniform. Soldiers, tram conductors, police, wardens, librarians and even the waiters. My logic reasoned that if the State is all powerful, it needs uniforms to visually identify authority over the Populace. To keep them in their place. As useful, productive idiots.

Then I read this morning that the Peoples Republic of Great Britain has decided to give 1,667 park wardens, dog wardens, car park attendants and shopping centre guards permitted to hand out fines. These are not Police Officers, sworn by an allegiance to the Crown. These are numpties in Costumes, sworn to making a profit for the State.

Who gave them their powers? I didn't.

Anyway. I've decided to fight back. I've had enough of Blockwarts wandering around telling me what they think I can and can't do. So I'm going to get myself a uniform of my own.

It will consist of a high Vis jacket and a peaked cap, a chunky belt with lots of pockets and pouches, and a mobile phone pinned to my shoulder.



I am going to have "Freedom Warden" written on the back and a nice armband to signify my authority. And then I am going to start having some fun. I am going to ask Policemen their name, rank, station and number. I am going to check the details of Park Wardens, Traffic Wardens and Community Wardens. I am going to film PCSO's in the street. Dressed in MY uniform of course. I am going to be a pain in the arse to those who assume they have authority over me because they are wearing a costume. I'm going to assert my authority as a law abiding citizen over them.

hat tip to GOT for Piccy

Them, watching me, watching them, watching me.

If you have access to a film crew and would like to join me in a little social experiment, please get in touch.

WATCH

UNIFORM UPDATE: A Fellow seditionary informs me of "Community Enforcement Officers" in Glasgow. Enforcing community on the population. Presumably.

75 Comments:

Rebel Saint 16 December 2009 at 09:43  

Superb idea. Creative, inspiring, positive protest not just whining on a blog comments page. Look forward to seeing the footage.

Anonymous,  16 December 2009 at 09:53  

Something I thought about the other day: AM I right in saying that most of these Blockwarts don't have the authority to demand your name? Conversly, I think they are required to give us theirs if we ask them. Could you just check that?

Would be great if we can demand their name and they can't have ours, when they try and ask for it!

Old Holborn 16 December 2009 at 09:57  

Anon

Correct. Also, they don't even have the power to stop you unless you are actually commiting a crime.

You, on the other hand have the right to demand to see ID from them.

What fun.

Road_Hog 16 December 2009 at 09:59  

You don't want to be filming those plastic policemen (PCSO) look what happened to this women that did. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009/dec/15/police-terrorism

LabourReallyAreVeryEvil,  16 December 2009 at 10:04  

Brilliant.

JuliaM 16 December 2009 at 10:16  

*looks up recipe on internet for cake with file in it*

Good luck!

Rab C. Nesbitt 16 December 2009 at 10:17  

Lasr week in Glasgow City Centre, a couple of 'Community Enforcement Officers' passed me. At first glance I thought they were coppers. Have a look at the uniform, dressed like the Polis, with hi viz jackets and chequer board hats.

I thought they were our version of PCSOs, ( I am not aware of any in Scotland).

It turns out thay are litter wardens for the council.

Two Polis officers passed them and completely ignored them...

Nick2,  16 December 2009 at 10:18  

As far as not giving your name to a Policeman/PSCO, I believe that both are entitled to demand your name & address - if you refuse to give it to them then the PSCOs can detain you using force until a real Policeman arrives, and a real one can immediately arrest you under PACE, either for not giving your name/address, or if they have 'reason to believe' that the information may be false.

But good luck with your 'Freedom Officer' exploits!

JD 16 December 2009 at 10:19  

helmet cam, I think.

Rab C. Nesbitt 16 December 2009 at 10:21  

Nick2, A PCSO has no more power than you or I. They cannot detain you against your will and you do not have to give them your details.

Anonymous,  16 December 2009 at 10:31  

Nick2, you can give them your name, but then you would be entering into joinder and would be liable to the full extent of the law. Say nothing, get no solicitor, if you do say anything, complain and demand to know EXACTLY which law they are arresting you for.

Nick2,  16 December 2009 at 10:31  

@Rab C Nesbitt: -

According to http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=92741 Its true some PCSO powers are granted by the Chief Constable of any given constabulary however there are now basic minimum powers which PCSO's across the UK are now given by the home office. Listed below are basic mimimum powers:


1. Issue Fixed Penalty Notices (FPNs) for offences of disorder
2. Detain for up to 30 minutes suspects who fail to give details
3. Use reasonable force to detain as in #2
4. Impose requirements and dispose of alcohol consumed in designated public places
5. Enter any premises to save life and limb or prevent serious damage to property
6. Carry out PACE road checks and stop vehicles to do so
7. Stop and search vehicles & belongings in areas authorised under the Terrorism Act 2000.
8. Seize vehicles used to cause alarm etc.
9. Issue Fixed Penalty Notices for offences of cycling on footways, dog fouling, litter
10. Require name and address from suspects
11. Require name and address from person acting in anti-social manner
12. Confiscate and dispose of alcohol from young persons
13. Seize and dispose of tobacco from young persons
14. Authorise removal of abandoned vehicles

I read that up until 2006 they were basically little better than traffic or litter wardens. However that certainly seems to have changed...

Tarquin 16 December 2009 at 10:39  

OH

they can't stop you, unless you're in a fabled 'stop and search' zone of course

(but they still can't demand details, anon)

Rab C. Nesbitt 16 December 2009 at 10:41  

Nick2, only by consent. By you.

If anyone in authority asks you if you 'understand', always say no.

By saying yes you have entered into a verbal contract.

At the end of the day, they can all go to fuck. Simples.

Anonymous,  16 December 2009 at 10:41  

Brilliant idea OH. I'd also suggested one of the other blogs (can't remember which one) that we should tke time & effort to photograph all the CCTV cameras in our area - giving the watchers a cheery wave as we do so.

Ivor Bigot 16 December 2009 at 11:00  

Don't forget a pair of really unpleasant looking boots. Put your hand up to interrupt them frequently, and spout some radio-bollox into your phone.

Oooh oooh! Forms! You'll need lots of forms! They'll need to be signed by all parties of course... ;-)

Norman Stanley Fletcher 16 December 2009 at 11:12  

I love your idea. I have often thought that with a Hi-viz jacket on these days you can wander around ordering people about with impunity, given that so much of joe public are so unquestioning of authority these day. Plus what my dear old dad used to refer to as “Fucking little Hitler syndrome” its rather chilling to see how giving someone a peaked hat and a blue jersey with epaulettes on the shoulder & patches on the elbow can turn the once meek and mild person into a card carrying cunt!

Meanwhile the cutting of proper men in uniform here is going on right under our very noses. The hypocrisy is typical shameful Liebour tactics. Good luck with your Freedom Warden idea, Perhaps you could go around handing out statutory rights notices to the public as you go, making them aware of their rights and listing how many “Authorities” have been give power over us all.

NSF

Anonymous,  16 December 2009 at 11:19  

There seems to be some confusion as to the requirement of giving one's name. Can we sort this please?

I would also suggest that on London photography day (or any time, in fact...), as many as possible turn up in 'freedom police' uniforms.

Old Holborn 16 December 2009 at 11:21  

You do NOT have to give your name or show any ID.

FULL STOP.

On my recent walk to Parliament, two coppers in the public gallery demanded to speak to me.

"You seem to be the organiser of this. We want a word with you"

OH: "I am the organiser of nothing. If you want a word, I'm in the pub over the road, suckers. Bye"

KNOW YOUR RIGHTS

Anonymous,  16 December 2009 at 11:25  

Make a citizens arrest on the first PCSO you find on the grounds of impersonating a Police Officer.
If you are going to pass it off effectively I recommend you dont wash for a week so you get the correct sweat/shit smell that seems a requirement for all little hitlers.At least the SS were always well turned out.

G-Daddy.co.uk 16 December 2009 at 11:40  

http://www.met.police.uk/stopandsearch/what_is.htm#askfor

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/09/liberty-central-stop-and-search-police

Always ask for the officers name
Always respond "No" or "I do not understand" when asked
Always refuse to give your Name & Address

bofl 16 December 2009 at 11:40  

what i find even more distasteful it that there are thousands of people who willingly sign up to be traffic wardens etc......how pathetic are these people to get a little badge and terrorize others?

all for very low pay?

i guess the govt. will always find quislings.......the uk reminds me of 1930s Germany.........

there were many people who were not nazis........many left...but those that couldnt leave were eventually outflanked by the state.....which is what is happening here (labour have introduced 3000+ new laws and many have catch-all additions).....

so divide and rule........keep the proles fighting each other and the shits at the top keep getting away with their evil plans.........

the 'berlusconi' incident has shown how angry people are in EVERY eu country............note how the authorities quickly stated that his attacker had 'mental health problems'..!!!!!!!!!

of course they would say that..

Old Holborn 16 December 2009 at 11:48  

Labour have actually introduced 27,000 new laws and 3000 criminal offences

A policeman will always say

"Do you understand your rights?"

It is a trick. It legally means

"Do you stand under your rights?"

In other words, "do you give up your rights?"

Always say "NO, I do not undertand my rights"

Powerful stuff. Remember, the Police are only 200 years old. We got on perfectly well before.

richard,  16 December 2009 at 12:39  

i was in a seaside town and saw two men with dayglo jackets and paraphernalia, patrolling down the street. the legend on their backs read "enforcement officer" and the name of the council. i asked one man, politely of course, what exactly he was enforcing. his reply was "i don't really know"

VotR 16 December 2009 at 12:41  

Good luck, OH. Fuck them up and the system. They deserve it after the shit they've shoveled into our faces.

greversi,  16 December 2009 at 13:44  

OH 1148hrs,

That is to say if you admit to 'understanding your rights' you are deferring to their authority.

That can work in two ways:

1. You understand and consent to the rights they are prepared to give you - ie the rights they read you if they arrest you.

or

2. You understand your common law rights and accept their invitation to give them up.

I can fathom the former but not quite the latter, particularly because of the verbal gymnastics required to get to it. Wouldn't number 1 be more likely?

Old Holborn 16 December 2009 at 13:53  

Common Law rights trump any rights they are prepared to give you when arrested.

Do not give them away in return for a few crumbs.

Just say "No, I do not understand my rights".

It fucks their system.

righty right wing (mrs),  16 December 2009 at 13:59  

Truth for Al Gore?:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/copenhagen/article6956783.ece

mcegan's big black bitch,  16 December 2009 at 15:19  

"I went out for a packet of fags once and ended up in Africa"

Hello big boy!

The Paragnostic 16 December 2009 at 15:22  

Nick2,

Regardless of the 'powers' that the Home Office has chosen to give to the Plastic Plod, be assured that if they attempt to use force against me I will initially inform them that I intend to use reasonable force to defend myself against an assault, and then proceed to use such force if they persist.

I would be quite willing to go to court over the matter, and to take it as far as need be to defend the principle that only real police officers have the right to use force to detain me, and then only for a good reason.

What Postman Pat has to say on the subject has no validity in my world - and any PCSO wishing to detain me should know that their health and safety will be jeapordised if they do not desist.

WV: 'oxfordly' - as in 'The Bullingdon boys behaved absolutely oxfordly'

Anonymous,  16 December 2009 at 16:00  

Free Manir the cricket bat hero who hit Mr Salem for six.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/pardon-munir-hussain

John Steed 16 December 2009 at 16:19  

You will find it far easier to establish a police state than to dismantle one.

eight rounds rapid,  16 December 2009 at 16:40  

... In other words, "do you give up your rights?"

So, it's a 'trick' to get you to accept their terms and conditions, is it?

Is everyone absolutely certain of all this (and the fact that PCSO's can't demand your identity, Nick2 disagrees but it seems odd that a PCSO can demand ID but the Police can't without reasonable grounds, unless Nick2 has failed to qualify his assertions in such a way as to render them meaningful).

These topics are worth a whole post of their own!

righty right wing (mrs),  16 December 2009 at 16:51  

Greetings OH,

A few weeks, maybe a month ago you had a video on your site of two PCSO fancy dress types harassing a video cameraman - I think it was in Piccadilly Circus.

One of the PCSO's was of Chinese origin I believe & was most unpleasant & rude to the innocent citizen - at one stage ordering the citizen to "shut up" several times with utter contempt & disdain.

Dixon of Dock Green would never have stood for it, Guv'nor.

I cannot find this video - please post a link.

Thank you

Regards
RRW (Mrs)

Ron Broxted,  16 December 2009 at 17:00  

I love dressing up in uniforms my favourite is my Uncles old SS uniform. Next favourite in my dressing up box is a woman police constables uniform complete with black hold up stockings. But my favourite outfit is my Dorothy outfit from the Wizard of Oz......Oooh matron.

Mrs McEgan,  16 December 2009 at 17:09  

I worry about my little Ron he has never had a girlfriend and has a pile of gay wank mags hidden under his bed. When he is not in is bedroom tossing himself off, he is down the public toilets dressed as a nazi getting himself arrested for drilling holes in the cubicle walls.

mungle,  16 December 2009 at 17:27  

The plethora of the otherwise unemployed now strutting about in various uniforms is potentially quite dangerous. Anyone up to no good could don some sort of comic opera uniform and convince the gullible that they have some sort of authority over them. A cover for sex criminals/thieves/con artists?

Anonymous,  16 December 2009 at 17:40  

What you appear to be missing in all this, OH, is whether some of us employed by the powers-that-be actually WANT to wear a bloody uniform.

I work for the Old Bill in forensics. I go to crime scenes and dust for fingerprints, take photos, etc. When I'm out on scene, I wear a paper forensic suit, but when I'm on general duty, it's trousers and shirt, no jeans or trainers - semi 'respectable' - you know the drill.

Me and my colleagues are now being told that we will be forced into uniform as soon as them upstairs can decide on one. The current choice is all dark blue nylon and combat trousers, with a nifty 'Forensics' baseball cap topping it all off. None of us want this. None.

Unlike Plod, we tend to work on the patch nearest where we live , and dressing like this is going to get somebody filled in, especially on some of the livelier boroughs.

Just 'cos the ones in charge come out with the policies, don't automatically assume that us poor saps on the front line are fully behind them. They won't be the ones getting a shoeing while dealing with a burglary on the Mozart Estate on a Friday evening, will they?

Rab C. Nesbitt 16 December 2009 at 17:56  

Anon 17.40

You make a valid point. I think sometimes we forget that the normal decent coppers out there are as pissed off and frustrated as we are.

I recommend reading Inspector Gadget's blog, seeing as the bastards have done in Nightjack.

Volatile Barry 16 December 2009 at 18:37  

I remember after Jerry Springer was on the BBC "Who Do You Think You Are?" programme there was someone commenting on the radio the next day saying how the 1930's footage of Berlin reminded him of today's London. Lots of people in uniform wandering around looking officious and regulating every thing in sight. In fact that's exactly what modern day London is like. Let's hope that when the money runs out the assorted wankers who wander around being unpleasant to everyone are amongst the first to get the chop. Unlikely, as they steal money from us to line the pockets of the corrupt politicians, it's the care workers etc who will get the chop first.

Anonymous,  16 December 2009 at 18:38  

CEO's are the new names used by the Jumped up [Largely by the council bosses] Traffic Wardens when the Police decriminalized a load of stuff so they could spend more time eating fish and chips and filling in pointless forms.

hangemall,  16 December 2009 at 18:49  

Talking of giving names, I dug this out from Guido's



......154
reg511 says:
April 8, 2009 at 3:00 pm

Under the pseudonym Charles Linton the young Tony Blair pleaded guilty to importuning in public toilets at Bow Street Magistrates Court and was fined GBP 50.00. This occured in 1983. So, I guess our future European Emporer has a bit of a colourful history, which of course does not colour his judgement (such that it is) on contemporary issues today. Not at all. Err-hem. Puke.

Gordon, Bliar, Mandelbum, you couldn’t make it up.........



I mentioned before in a comment some months ago about how our rulers can be compromised. "Now if you just do us this little favour we will make it worth your while."

Righty Right Wing (Mrs),  16 December 2009 at 19:06  

eight rounds rapid

Thank you very much.

My friends in Scandinavia had difficulty believing the story I told them about this video.

I am sure they will be shocked to see how low the British people have fallen & how despotic our Govrnment & Police now are.

Best regards
RRW (Mrs)

Rogerborg 16 December 2009 at 19:15  

@bofl: >what i find even more distasteful it that there are thousands of people who willingly sign up to be traffic wardens etc [...] all for very low pay

Didn't you read the article?(*) The Tower Hamlet Blockwarts start on £35K. Not bad for runts and bloaters who couldn't hack it as coppers.

By the way: not one of you experts opining on what the law is and why the law ain't have cited a single statute or common law precedent. Gobshites, the lot of you. Best if you remain beneath the contempt of the State, rather than rely on these apocryphal common law "rights" that you so fervently believe in, but can never point to.

(*) Apologies for the rhetorical question. I know fine well that you're all content to be spoon fed a diet of full fat cognitive dissonance.

eight rounds rapid,  16 December 2009 at 19:21  

Under the pseudonym Charles Linton ...

I took it as read, and assumed almost everyone else did likewise, that ... err ... Charles Linton's sodomaic/bottomite tendencies were both well known (in the "open secret" sense) and the whole reason for him being so egregiously supine in the run up to Iraq 2.0.

A whistle-blower claims American intelligence eavesdropped on Mr Blair's private telephone calls

Including information of a "personal nature" ... presumably, Charles Linton was overheard arranging one or more protein colonics. His teeth are in a shockingly poor state of repair as well, one does wonder - fecally induced gingivitis, perchance?

Rogerborg: I don't know either way. If you do, please speak up.

Grex 16 December 2009 at 19:25  

Canon DSLR with HD and all the toys? They donlt fucking scrimp when they're spending our cash to out us under surveillance do they?

Anonymous,  16 December 2009 at 19:52  

I spot a certain amount of 'ironing' as Bart Simpson might opine - Holby castigating twats dressing up and then er........dressing up.

I might pop over to Braintree for a laugh. I can see it now down the High Street - people pointing and laughing...'Ere, there goes that nutter who usually wears the Guy Fawkes outfit, he's a fucking traffic warden now !'

Old Holborn 16 December 2009 at 20:05  

Feel free Anon

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."

Captain Haddock,  16 December 2009 at 21:00  

This ... http://www.policecommunitysupportofficer.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4030

makes for "interesting" reading ..

The Real Ron Broxted,  16 December 2009 at 21:32  

Britain is a worse betthan Cuba under Batista or Vietnam in 1974.

Nick2,  16 December 2009 at 21:37  

@eight rounds rapid:-

I understood from PCSO & Met Police related websites that PCSOs could demand ID, and what I quoted from a PCSOs site seemed to be the most complete.

I'm happy (pleased even!) that OH has listed URLs that show that they can't demand ID.

The video relating to photographers rights was especially eye-opening.

Joe Public,  16 December 2009 at 21:58  

@ Nick2 at 10:41.....
"5. Enter any premises to save life and limb..."

Surely only if they've carried out a fully documented Risk Analysis prior to entry?

thelunaticarms 16 December 2009 at 22:38  

A job is a job in this market, and NuGov needs to buy all the votes it can get.

Great idea once more OH, wind em up enough and maybe give em a breakdown to worry about.

El-Kevo 16 December 2009 at 22:58  

The kinds of wardens we DO want back, ie park keepers, train guards and bus conductors will never happen.

So these wardens are in the wrong places at the wrong time.

El-Kevo 16 December 2009 at 22:59  

In response to the next copper who comes out with the time-worn phrase " 'e woz in da wong place at da wong toim." I suggest we say, "No. The police were in the wrong place at the wrong time."

Liberace,  17 December 2009 at 00:12  

Bliar love teh cock?

But has he seen Mandy's weapon of mass destruction?

bofl 17 December 2009 at 00:19  

rogerborg.........no i am not perfect.......in the piles of shit that is spewed out from our 'leaders' every day i missed something........



anyway..........if we are all gobshites then instead of carping educate us in the ways of the law?

you nearly always mock..so how about saying or doing something constructive?

Clive,  17 December 2009 at 00:57  

If a dayglo prodnose tries to order you about, that's a Section 5 offence under the Public Order Act 1986. Arrest the cunt and press charges.

If a dayglo prodnose tries to issue a fixed penalty notice, that's robbery. Arrest the cunt, press charges and get him slung in prison.

caesars wife,  17 December 2009 at 00:58  

I cannot do full Liberatrian like you OH , but in reading your post and those of others on here , I see what you are on about its oppresion to cover for flaw in the construct isnt it ??

Ron Broxted,  17 December 2009 at 01:18  

I refused to be cowered by the forces of state oppression. No male twat in a yellow flourescent will make me go on my knees before them, unless they want a bit of oral that is. I am the real Ron Broxted, beware of cheap imitations, I am truly dangerous the world needs people like me. I am Sparticus, I am the twink miester.

Ron Broxted,  17 December 2009 at 01:49  

Male rape, is quite rightly, an emotive subject but as I said to my brief "Rape is the easiest serious crime to lie about". The cases of Cross and Blackwell and Austin Seven to name but two arse rippers highlight this fact. In May 2004 the Shagshire Constabulary were alleged to be implicated in trying to "fit up" an innocent man by planting sperm from a jar under his bed in the trousers of a young twink. The case is now before the European Court of Diabolical Liberties. What has been the response by ZaNuLabour? Lady Stern has called for "more" convictions. May one suggest the "Arizona Law" whereby those found guilty of false and malicious accusations receive the same sentence as the unlucky rapist (currently a minimum of ten years in Arizona correction centre, banged up with a big black body builder....Oooh matron I feel quite dizzy, this ought to drop the numbers of false claims (now at 1%). Drunken consent is no consent yet there is no legal definition of drunkenness in male rape cases thank god. Contributory negligence plays a role, such as wearing tight vests and leather shorts and bondage gear, as does better gay sex education for both males and females. Lady Sterns idea of free transport for women is ill thought out. Is that not discrimination of the highest ilk to say that one's gay son may walk home but not one's lesbian daughter? At what time will this magic bus arrive? Chucking out time? Will it cover all areas of Britain? Will it have nice cosy seats with pink cusions? Will it prevent male rape?

Anonymous,  17 December 2009 at 03:25  

Capt'n Haddock - followed your link. What a bunch of dysfunctional little hitlers that lot are.

banned 17 December 2009 at 05:20  

RRW(Mrs.) You will be pleased to know that the 'Chinese' officer was sacked as a result of that video.

I pulled into a carpark for a cigarette the other day, sat on a bench with a nice view.
A council van came in, the uniformed Enforcement Officer got out and started fiddling with the ticket machine. I became aware that he was talking at me.
"What's the problem, parking is free this time of year isn't it ?"
"Oh, no problem, I was just saying hello". ( ?? )
I stubbed my fag out in the empty packet that I carry for the purpose. Walked over to him, looked him up and down before congratulating him on his smart turn-out
"Unlike the Council Officers in my city who are just scruffy"
This seemed to confuse him.

eight rounds rapid,  17 December 2009 at 07:35  

@Nick2

Thanks, Nick2, the link you posted is interesting, but it still seems extremely unlikely that PCSOs can be granted powers to demand ID, beyond those of regular Police officers. Is it not more likely that PCSOs can be granted the power to demand ID, as with regular Police, if they have reasonable grounds to suspect that an offence has been, is being, or will be, committed? We are all here, I hope, referring to situations where people like ourselves are not committing or intending to commit offences and thus are not obliged to identify ourselves.

As to the wording used on Police/PCSO websites, it would be unwise to take their wording, and its implications, at face value, as the recent spate of photography related incidents clearly show there is an unhealthy level of wishful 'power fansasy' thinking within their ranks.

To be fair to OH, he doesn't have to provide a URL showing that PCSOs do not have the power to demand ID. The onus is on them to prove that they do have the powers they claim under given circumstances.

"The video relating to photographers rights was especially eye-opening." It is indeed. Her mistake, as I understand it, was to provide an essentially dishonest response rather than declining the whole request, which she was, again, as I understand it, within her rights to do.

I would be more than happy to identify myself to the Police or PCSOs if their request was, in my view, well founded. e.g. if the circumstances are such that I can see why they might suspect my actions, I would be happy to cooperate beyond the legal minimum in order to satisfy their curiosity.

Again, though, this is not, as I understand it, the kind of situation that is being discussed here.

Anonymous,  17 December 2009 at 09:36  

Please don't tar all with the same brush. Those of us who still go to work to catch burglars, thieves and other such similar scumbags are as dismayed and demoralised by the state of things as you are. Hate the Police all you want, but there are still many (in fact most, believe it or not) who only want to do the job the best we can for you, despite the fact that you hate us.

Peel's nine priciples of Policing still hold true, and, although we have instiutionally lost our way, there are many individuals who still do our best to uphold them.

http://www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/laworder/9points.htm

Captain Haddock,  17 December 2009 at 09:42  

Anon @ 0325 ..

There's more .. it gets worse the further into that site you delve ..

Now, there's so much confusion as to the powers of PCSO's (even they don't really know precisely what they can .. or, more importantly can't do) that the cynic which lives deep within me cannot believe that its an entire coincidence .. One might be forgiven for believing that the "powers that be" have deliberately engineered this situation, the better to confuse & therefore control us ..

I find the best way of dealing with PCSO's is to totally ignore them, never make eye contact .. thus denying them the opportunity to speak to you .. and if they do speak to you .. simply "cock a deaf 'un" & walk away ..

There's no Law in force (yet) which says you have to speak to or acknowledge anyone, if you choose not to do so ..

Captain Haddock,  17 December 2009 at 09:50  

Anon @ 0936 ..

I don't think its the "Police" per se who are hated .. most reasonable people accept that the Police do a dirty & dangerous job, which many people simply don't have the bottle to do ..

What most of us hate however is the appointment of Specials & PCSO's in lieu of sworn Constables ..

If I have occasion to deal with the Police, I expect to deal with a "proper" Police Officer .. not a clown in fancy dress with fantasy notions of how important they are ..

The blame of course lies with the Politicians & ACPO who allowed, nay encouraged this situation ..

With regard to Peel's principles .. I must say that I think many younger Police Officers would benefit greatly from regular reminders of their "Primary Objects" ..

eight rounds rapid,  17 December 2009 at 11:45  

"Please don't tar all with the same brush."

Can't speak for everyone else, but Captain H. sums up my position very well.

If they, the Police, took wrongdoing within their own ranks as seriously as some of these infamously maladjusted PCSOs take their inferiority complex, I think the Police would be held in much higher regard by all.

Captain Haddock,  17 December 2009 at 18:16  

Hi "Eight rounds" ..

Sorry but I have to disagree with your last paragraph .. I can think of no other organisation which is as closely monitored, supervised & controlled as the Police, particularly within the lower ranks ..

The problems arise when Senior Ranks .. sorry Senior Management start hob-nobbing with Politicians or getting involved in political causes Ian Blair, Ali Desai & Bob Quick are but three prime examples ..

The Police urgently need someone to guide them back to basics (the detection & prosecution of offenders and the maintenance of the Queen's Peace) .. someone like Robert Mark (IMHO the last "real" Commissioner the Met had) .. a man who refused to associate with Politicians, who insisted on the job being done properly and who ignored the potential rewards for playing the political "game" ..

A man who together with his "sidekick" Jim Starrett cleaned up the festering mess which the Met CID had been allowed to become under his predecessors .. in short a man of integrity, honour & decency ..

Just don't hold your breath with our current political system in place ..

Jack Regan,  17 December 2009 at 21:17  

Captain Haddock Jim Starrett a man of integrity and honour? Robert Mark hated the thick Irish cunt because he was trying to frustrate his investigation into corruption in the Met. Big Jim never paid for anything in the West End. Do you think it all stopped at Commander Dury level?

Captain Haddock,  18 December 2009 at 17:21  

Hi Jack ..

No .. I meant Mark was a man of integrity .. Starrett was a bully (if my info is to be believed).. and of course it didn't stop with Drury .. but at least Mark made a good start ..

Mr Insignificant 27 December 2009 at 18:00  

2. Detain for up to 30 minutes suspects who fail to give details

they have to suspect you of an offence before they can demand your name and address. Ask them what it is that they suspect you are guilty of whenever they 'demand' your details.

gamefan12 14 March 2010 at 18:38  

I think this is ok for these people to hand out fines. They are just doing their job.
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