Tuesday, 6 October 2009

Laying off the Layabouts.

The Tories will have to be careful when positioning their key speakers on the question of what to do with the 2.7 million currently claiming Incapacity Benefit - when I first saw this photograph I thought Theresa May was advocating bringing back capital punishment for the legion of South Wales ex-Miners suffering from 'bad backs'.

Were they to be successful in reclassifying the 2.7 million as fit for some form of work within three years, they would first stand accused by Labour of having 'doubled the unemployment rate' in their first three years. It is true, they would have done, but they would also have lopped a third off the cost of supporting those people as they languish in front of Jeremy Klye - assuming they are up early enough to catch the programme.



Predictably, the BBC chose to illustrate the 'nasty Tory' angle of this proposal by heading straight to Remploy in Birmingham, an organisation which specialises in finding employment for the truly disabled. Nobody doubts that the unfortunate gentleman with one leg will find it difficult to get full time employment, but the idea of revitalising and pushing forward Chris Grayling's proposal to diagnose all 2.7 million people in terms of what they can do, rather than accepting that because their Doctor is unable to say definitively whether or not they have a bad back, that they are excused any work whatsoever, is sound.



One outcome of the proposals is that if they are going to find enough Doctors to do the estimated 2,500 'capability assessments' every day, they are likely to find themselves employing agency Doctors sourced from far and wide across the globe - that will inevitably mean Doctors coming from countries where even those with profound disabilities are forced to do something towards helping to feed themselves, and the Doctors themselves will be mindful that they have travelled many miles from their home and families in order to take up their position as assessor - both factors likely to make them less susceptible to the pressures felt by the family Doctors in areas of high unemployment when asked to sign yet another sick note.



The Tories will inherit a poverty more profound than that frequently highlighted in third world countries, for it is a 'supported' poverty, supported by the dwindling numbers of honest tax payers. The cost of those 5 million on one form of benefits or another is now in excess of the tax receipts from those who do manage to find a way to add value to society.



Beveridge said that ‘idleness is not the same as want, but a separate evil which men do not escape by having an income. Idleness, even on an income, corrupts. The feeling of not being wanted demoralises.’



Incredibly, until Iain Duncan-Smith spent two years compiling his report even the Department of Works and Pensions did not have an overview of the cost of the 51 separate benefits available to those who tick the right boxes. The idea that for some people, work simply didn't 'pay', was gossip confined to the snug of the public house - the Government did not have the figures that would confirm or deny this.



The young girls seen pushing prams around desolate shopping centres in mining towns are a case in point. If you have been let down by the ideological trend not to 'push' you in school, if you have been encouraged by the 'uman rites' brigade not to respect your parents, how then do you as an uneducated untrained young girl manage to leave home and support yourself.



Do you take the £200 a week plus free flat provided by the Government for a few hours hard 'labour' (sic) and the next 16 years taking the occasional stab at baby sitting one of the next generation, or do you spend long hours frying chips inMacdonalds for the minimum wage and no free flat? Even the brain-dead can work out a no-brainer.



The Tory scheme is remarkably similar to that proposed by Frank Field, and cynically undermined by Harriet Harman, at Brown's bequest. The 'nice' Labour party preferred to brag of 'new jobs' created - for immigrants on minimum wages - and to hide the lack of meaningful jobs for their core supporters behind a smoke screen of faux incapacity. An embittered Frank Field was airbrushed from history.



The 'nasty' Tory party will hopefully be kinder to those decent men and women who put their faith in Labour, and give them a meaningful route out of their 'corrupt idleness' by revealing them for what they are - unemployed as a result of the disastrous decade of Broon economics.



52 comments:

bofl said...

the whole system is well and truly a nightmare.it will never change because the government-whether labour or tory-takes all of our money and waste it.

if we had no income tax then we would all be in a better position to save and invest ie LOOK AFTER OURSELVES!!!

but-politicians know best and squander OUR cash ......

we will never have enough jobs-technology takes away employment daily.....add to that a population explosion and outsourcing then the situation is only getting worse!!!!!!!!

we or rather our govt. shoot ourselves in the foot all the time-
4000 ships come into felixstowe each year full of foreign goods....

when they leave 50% are EMPTY-the others are full of waste or aggregates!!!!!!!!!

time is running out-the money already has........why do you think they had to conjure up £200 billion?

Delphius1 said...

The problem is, what work are these people going to do once they are put onto jobseekers?

A high percentage of jobs have gone abroad, so where will these jobs be magicked from?

If they are put onto Jobseekers, then that only lasts 6 months before the jobless are put onto income support. Maybe some saving there in as much as IS is less than ESA, but not a huge amount.

If the government puts them on job creation schemes, like community projects (work for welfare) then I would hope that as their employer, the government would abide by the law and pay them the legal minimum wage. So that means they're costing the country more than languishing on invalidity.

Of course the Libertarian Way is to not pay them benefit at all and let them fend for themselves, which creates a dog-eat-dog situation where the desperate "have-nots" will prey on the soft "have" targets, thus sending crime through the roof.

The problem is that we've had decades of this system, where jobs have been shipped abroad so as to supply bigger profits to businesses and cheap tellys to the masses. The problem is, those tellys aren't so cheap when you factor in the extra taxes necessary to pay to help those made workless by the export of jobs.

The only winners in the current scenario are the mates of the political elite: big business and banks, who pocket the profits while we pay for the mess left behind.

bofl said...

ps........where are all the people going to get jobs?

away from the bullshit about recovery the u.s economy is decimated!!!!

official figs say 9.8 % unemployed-the true number is more like 20%.........they only get a limited amount of benefit in the u.s -so how will the uk proles find work when they cant in the u.s?????

meanwhile the uk slides even further......did the bbc report this?

UK industrial production fell 2.5% month on month in August versus a 0.5% increase the month before, while the annual rate of decline tumbled to 11.2% from 9.3%. That's much worse than the 0.1% monthly increase and 8.8% fall predicted by analysts. Manufacturing production dropped 1.9% on a monthly basis and by 11.3% annually. Economists wanted a 0.3% monthly gain and 9.3% fall year on year.

Delphius1 said...

Actually the more I think about it, the more complex it becomes, because coming off ESA onto jobseekers enables you to claim other benefits, like free prescriptions (yes, if you are off work ill, you aren't entitled to free prescriptions: go figure), bus passes for the kids to go to school, free school meals... I'm sure there are other benefits I haven't covered that would be unlocked by changing from one to the other.
Life would be more complicated for the claimant because of the increased paperwork (therefore increased admin costs), so I'm not convinced the savings are really there.

Maybe it would save the DWP money, because the benefits unlocked by the change would be paid for buy local government, or other national departments.

More spin, smoke and mirrors than substance to these proposals?

Road_Hog said...

A good article OH and my semtiments exactly. It used to be if you went and did hard manual work you got paid a decent wage for it, because it was back breaking. When the minimum wage came out, it was a joke, most places were paying well above it.

I walked past an employment agency in Coventry a couple of weeks ago. Labourers £6ph (effectively MW), who is going to work 40 hours a week for a little over £12K? Only for at least a third of it to be taken in tax/NI etc. and then have to apply for tax credits.

For the low paid/poorly educated immigration has crucified lower wages and it's no wonder core Labour voters are turning to the BNP, because not all of them want benefits, many of them want to do an honest day's work. But as you say, frying chips in McD's from when you're 16 until 70 or whatever the retirement age is by then, isn't much of a life.

VotR said...

The dreams of a better life are just that, a dream. Labour are completely to blame for broken Britain, they had their chance and blew it. They made their promises and kept little, if any. They borrowed instead of saved, and the money is running out, and they still borrow even more. We are bankrupt, any more gone and it will be unrepayable.

Feel sorry the most for the young, straight out of school or college, and straight into a life of no hope, no career or future. Thanks to Labour.

The Young Oligarch said...

" £200 a week plus free flat " ?

What "mining towns" rent out their council flats at £800 a month ?

Under the Westway said...

I don't actually blame the teen mums. They are just doing what comes naturally.

Thirty years ago Darren would have been earning decent money on a production line or down a pit. Tracy might have had a part-time job at the hairdresser's which she fully intended to pack in afyer the wedding. Darren and Tracy would have got married in their late teens or early twenties, bought or rented a two-up-two-down (affordable even on Darren's wage alone) within walking distance of both sets of parents, and had two kids. That was the pattern of life that worked for them, that had worked for their parents, grandparents and probably their entire ancestry since the beginning of the Iron Age.

It's not their fault that the natural order has been destroyed. What is Tracy supposed to do; decide that, for the good of the economy and the planet generally, she is going to remain childless? Is Darren, thousands of him living in Merthyr Tydfil and Gateshead and Wigan, supposed to get a job in PR or banking?

Some countries take the view that they would rather subsidise manual labouring jobs than pay for people to do nothing. Darren (and Tracy) need practical work that requires them to show up on time and do a physical task that has a measurable outcome; no performance appraisals, just have they or haven't they turned out the required number of naxins (wv) to the required standard. If yes, fine, if more, bonus, if less, wages docked. Simples.

There must be some stuff we currently import that could be made here at the same cost. There are things we already make that the world wants to buy. So if we are going to be spending quadrillions anyway, why not at least spend it on producing stuff? Because until there is a way of vaporising several million surplus-to-requirements innocent people, they are not going away in a hurry.

ukipwebmaster said...

Feels like 1992 all over again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C25pU_4NoII

Road_Hog said...

Westway, well said, sounds like common sense, I didn't think that existed anymore.

PeeWee said...

all this does is make life increasingly difficult for all disabled people as once again they 'all' come under scrutiny because some are dishonest. The stress of the last round of interviews for ability to work was bad enough. I can see more of the same here. The bankers get away with murder and disabled people pay for their misdeeeds

SO17 said...

Too many people, not enough to do and not enough money to keep the people doing nothing.
Severe hardship is ahead that will make a Chinamans life look easy.
For that is the person Britons will have to undercut.

Ivor Bigot said...

Shocking as it may be to some of you, there is still some industry left in Britain, where some of us still design and build... you know... "stuff", generating what little GDP this nation still has. If the next govt are serious about getting people back to work, then they need to stop legislating and taxing the bollocks off every small business in the land. What large companies are left are still soldiering on, but no-one can hope to grow a small business beyond garden shed status with the current systems in place.

Big organisations will all wither, displace, or outsource in the end. It's perfectly natural and it's called capitalism. Trouble is, there's nothing coming up to fill the void.

We can't all work for fucking Tesco.

Marchamont Needham said...

There must be some stuff we currently import that could be made here at the same cost

Yes, Electricity. Start the treadmills rolling.

Jim said...

The whole benefits system needs scrapped. I am sick of paying tax for people who will not or cannot work. Yes, I mean cannot work. People who are disabled are ‘unlucky’ but what difference does that make to me?

We are propping up a system that generates more and more dependant people. Disabled people should be made to go to charity for help. I would happily pay 50 pence every week to charity to look after the disabled and mentally ill. Money given in charity will be spent more carefully. When every penny counts, charities will be able to assess each person individually, ‘Depressed’, ‘bad back’,’OCD’? Well you better be able to convince a charity of your ‘disability’, because I am sick of paying people for ‘made up’ illnesses. If you can convince a charity that you are genuine then you should be okay, but if my charity money is being spent wrongly, I can and will withdraw it. That is the best ‘audit’ you need. People spending their own money, how they see fit, will regulate these charities better than any commission.

I know for a fact that there is simply not enough jobs to go round in this Country for those at the bottom of the market. Many of my customers actively seek out the best Eastern Europeans on the market, because those at the bottom of the heap in this Country cannot measure up. Don’t get me wrong, there is plenty of scum in Poland and we wouldn’t touch them with a bargepole either. However, I have three Polish guys and a Lithuanian who think they have won the jackpot on six quid an hour (less deductions like safety boots, admin costs etc). The people they replaced are not willing to work for that for us, so they have left. Guess what? I know that one of them now works for less! Result! That is going to get worse for people at the bottom. There are too many people competing for too few jobs and they are competing for those jobs with the best Europe have to offer.

The benefits culture is propping up a failed system. We are never going to get back to full employment, so why pretend we will? Benefits were supposed to keep people whilst they find work, but most of these people will never find work. It simply does not exist and if it DID exist, it will be done by Eastern Europeans anyway.

Scrap the system and let the lazy/useless/feckless fend for themselves. I did not create the problems of the economy so why ask me to prop up people who I do not care a stuff about? I work hard, I work sixty hours a week when work demands it to provide for my family, so what about the livelihood of chav scum in some hell hole? What difference to me does it make if he kills his equally chav scum neighbour for a few quid? As long as they stick to their own areas, they can fuck off and leave me alone. I want nothing to do with them, they should extend the same courtesy. The bastards are running amok as it is, stoping their handouts will not do any more harm will it? Lets be honest, anyone who can give a decent blow job will never starve and the one thing single mothers are never shy about and are quite adept at must be decent blow jobs.

Edgar said...

@Under the Westway:

"Darren (and Tracy) need practical work that requires them to show up on time and do a physical task that has a measurable outcome; ..."

Oh, is that what they need? Maybe what Darren and Tracey need is a decent fucking education so that they don't have to be drones and drudges for the likes of fuckers like you. Cunt.

Road_Hog said...

Edgar,
I think you had Westway wrong, I think he/she simply meant that not everybody can have a PHD and there used to be a place for everybody in the UK job market and that, that place has now been removed for some in society and that perhaps we should at aim making something available for those that want to work.

If you want to get angry, then I suggest you read Jim's post, although I'm struggling to understand whether it is real or a wind up.

Old Holborn said...

I'm backing Jim, wind up or not.

Anonymous said...

Some in-laws in Wales get a "free car" every 3 years. The only reason they get one is because she is as fat as a pig and can barely move. The reason she is so fat is because she waddles 50 yards to the club every night and necks about 14 whiskeys and a couple of pints,followed by a huge portion of fish and chips. Her feller uses the car to do cash in the hand minicabbing. They are all on some benefit or other.(and live rent free in a council house) It is as natural as breathing to them. They see no reason to stop. The tory loses his deposit in that constituency.
Urban11

Road_Hog said...

"I'm backing Jim, wind up or not."

I have to inform you, I don't think think the bit about single mums gagging to hand out blow jobs for a beer and a pie were true. Sorry OH, to be the bearer of bad news.

Anonymous said...

Road hog.

If you want to get angry, then I suggest you read Jim's post, although I'm struggling to understand whether it is real or a wind up.

The only person getting a wind up here is me. I am sick of paying money to prop up those who will never support themselves. Why? Why am I responsible for those people? I am working my nadgers of, half of that goes to the Government to support losers and the rest goes to me and my family? Why? What I am I getting from that?

we should at aim making something available for those that want to work.

Why should ‘we’ do anything for people who are unable or unwilling to work? If people are too stupid/lazy to make something of themselves, why should I be forced to pay for someone who has sat on his arse and made no attempt to better themselves? I left school with no qualifications, but I have worked my way without anyone’s help. I now make a reasonably good living, not rich by any means, but I get by. Now all that hard work is to be taxed to provide jobs for ‘chav’ scum to give them a cushy job?

I have made countless mistakes in my life, but I pay for every one of them, but now you expect to me to pay for other people’s mistakes? No way. If they are not happy here emigrate!

Anonymous said...

Good job you've got your guns, then you can shoot their faces off when they come to grab your stuff because they're starving. Good luck with that.

Old Holborn said...

Danegeld never works

Show me unemployed person WHO HAS NEVER WORKED and I will show you a telly, a mobile phone, a nylon football shirt, a playstation, some Nike trainers, some roll ups, some cheap jewellry, a rent free property, no council tax, free prescriptions, a few empty Stella cans and a beergut.

You do KNOW why half the third world is queuing at Calais, don't you?

Old Holborn said...

Read

LINK

Anonymous said...

O/H - I think we all know there are criminals in all layers of society.

The trouble with Jim and Anon 14:17 is that they fall for the government line that hard working people like YOU pay for the benefits of THEM (filthy dole scum)
The real robbers here are the real big boys (you know who I mean).
They award themselves billions, give billions to the bankers, and waste countless billions more.

Same old story. Divide and conquer.

jim said...

I am not buying any 'line' Government or otherwise. I see a system that clearly is not working and a system being propped up despite the fact that we spend 130 billion quid a year on it. If these people were crime free you could even call it Danegeld, but even as Danegeld it doesn't work. So why keep it going?

Let them stand on their own two feet. Build gated communities for the rest of us and let the bastards sort out out among themselves.

Under the Westway said...

@Edgarfuckwad

Yeah, you're right, send them all to university to get degrees in surfing studies and toenail decoration. That'll fix things.

Since when is an honest job drudgery? And if it is, most of us are drudges. What the fuck do you think I do? OK, I'm a technician on shiftwork. It's the best I could get: not rocket science, but an honest day's work for a reasonable wage, and bugger you sideways if you think that makes me a drone compared with you, whatever the cunting bollocks it is you do for a living, apart from wanking into a test tube.

@RoadHog: cheers mate

Lutney Chocker said...

All that's needed is a bit of pressure on people.

I used to be a scroat, and as soon as I had no choice but to work or starve on the street, I made bastard sure I got a job.

Changed my whole attitude.
"Arbeit makt Frei", as they say (not very PC, I know, but kinda true!).

They talk about "supporting vulnerable people", but they seem to forget that the whole point of it is to get people off it and onward and upward.

They might want to consider shifting benefits to supporting small businesses in taking on trainees of one sort or another.

Either way, you need a clock ticking on people... so their benefits are reducing by a set percentage week by week; and have some rewards and penalties built in to wean people off the whole benefits mindset.

The whole reason why immigrants were "needed", was because the local scroats have permission to say "no" - that has to go.
Stop giving people money to piss away at Argos - bring back the workhouse!

The whole country needs incentives to work and build assets... the culture of Labour-Liberal-Conservative has basically been constantly eroding people's drive to better themselves, degrading them, and making them slaves of the state... hopefully the 13 years bad luck of Labour will have drained the coffers to such an extent that there'll be no choice for the next 20 years but to slash and burn and starve the state.

Anonymous said...

I am a living example of the benefits culture.
I have been on incap for 3 years and live in social housing.
Things were not always this way for me.
Since leaving school I had mainly worked in the private sector and for quite a while was self employed.
A spell in public service was an eye opener.
All I can say is that apart from genuine ill health what did it for me is the manner in which Britain rewards failure and mediocraty.
Every penny I ever earned has been hard fought.
To see useless bastards in the private/public sector getting lottery size wage packets for being shit at their job makes me puke.
Also how many in the private sector dont rely on Tax payer money directly or indirectly.
Not fucking many I bet.
It never mattered what I did,however shit the job or bad the pay nothing changed but got worse, So fuck it.

Boxer said...

Surely those on the gravy train,living their dream,are just following the example set by parliament. What politician has the moral authority to lecture self interested parasites,on the usefulness to society? If we are going to pick on benefit cheats,lets start at the top.

Anonymous said...

Wait till the tory knobs get in, they will continue until Cameron (Blair 2.0) and finish off the job.

banned said...

I agree with someone above and don't blame the teenage slags one little bit for adopting a lifestyle that is most likely to benefit themselves; I blame those who invented the "system" that makes it so.
On the other hand, I know a lady who was required to present herself to whatever department deals with these things to prove her level of disabilty and lack of mobility. She has no legs, amputated at the hips following a car accident. " OK, fine " they said, " that'll take about 18 weeks to administrate your Disability Living Allowance "
18 weeks, WTF would it take 18 weeks to admin the fact that she's got no legs ? As it happens it took rather longer since at one point, for no obvious reason, they decided that she had died.

Oh and I met an X-Sky installer the other day who quit because he could never do the set number of installations per day without getting home after 8pm in part because some households would not let him call before 11am as they still be in bed while others made him wait till they had finished their video/pc game.

electro-kevin said...

This is all much much worse than you think.

The economic downturn will lead to mass unemployment, loss of welfare and bloody violence.

But sooner or later the welfare monster has to be faced down. Better now than later.

bofl said...

the average wage in poland is £310 per month.......if someone comes here and shares accomodation then they are quids in......ie earning maybe £1250 oer month...........of course these people are happy!!!!!!

so lets send all our jobs abroad and import all the workforce.......

dont blame the people at the bottom.we have no power at all...
it is the fault of linatic politicos and business who do not give a shit about the uk or anyone in it...........there motives are short term profit.........

take norwich union for example.they have sacked thousnds and sent the jobs to india.........avge daily pay in uk £60.avge pay india £2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

they say its about returns for shareholders.that is bollocks!!!

being a shareholder means nothing-its another smokescreen like being told we live in a democracy when we have the right to vote for some twat every 4/5 years.........its all about large payouts for the bosses and fuck the uk people............but then again its always easy to kick those at the bottom isn't it?

woman on a raft said...

An embittered Frank Field was airbrushed from history.

Given that he told the truth about pensions, too, he's bloody lucky he wasn't taken for a walk in the woods.

Griblett said...

'...loss of welfare and bloody violence.'

Ain't that the truth.

Within two years the only skill that anyone is going to need is how to catch your own food and how not to die of typhoid or cholera. Oh and how to avoid marauding bands of Somalians/muslims.

Jim's comments above make me laugh. There'll be gated communities alright but they won't include the likes of me or him.

There's a hurricane coming and you can't get out of the way, unless you're a multi-millionaire. In which case, "Can I live with you? Make good rabbit and pigeon casserole, mister."

Jim said...

Wait a minute, the World does not owe anyone a living. We now live in a global economy with global markets and it is not going to go away just because a few politicians would like it to go away. If you want to earn wages in the top ten per cent of the World’s population, then you better acquire skills that only ten per cent of the population can compete with or else you are going to be chapping. Those Poles are so grateful to be earning a decent wage, they out compete the locals for work, so why should they be castigated for that?

I have news for those that think that is bad, we do it every day. Every day, we have to tender for contracts at some level. I have to undercut my competition every day or I risk being idle. Too much and I lose out, too little and we lose money. Not like the public services, where the cheque comes in every week. We get paid if we win contracts. I have sat in my car and wept at the side of the road because someone I trusted overshot our initial tender by a poxy £200, on the other hand I have barely broken even on other jobs. We have to get it right EVERY time. So these Poles are welcome to any work they get.

Norwich Union can find people to answer phones in Bombay at a fraction of the price that they can in Norfolk? So? The people in Norfolk need to start thinking about learning new skills or living within their means. Sony can build DVD players in China cheaper than Portsmouth? The Chinese will work for a bowl of rice. Well Portsmouth need to learn how to live on a bowl of rice a day then. There are two BILLION people who will make shoes for a couple of pounds a day, no point in complaining that you aren’t getting a fair wage, you are getting a fair wage.

Once we scrap the benefits culture wages will come down (irrespective of the minimum wage) to realistic levels. The best will prosper and the lazy will starve, exactly as it should be.

Old Holborn said...

Jim,

Welcome to Libertarianism.

Jim said...

Problem is OH, I am a Libertarian with the net up. You still want to spend my money, albeit you want to spend less of it. You still think your Party know best on some issues.

bofl said...

jim.........i understand that you have to be competitive........i went to work in franfurt because i couldnt get a job here.

i am talking about the people at the top.......they just talk...

but empired rise and fall and while they are gorging themselves our country is falling around our ears......we need to compete or will be usurped.......

but money will not come into the country by having more grafitti cleaners or more branches of tescos...

we have been left behind and the fats cats dont give a shit.........

the rest of us will have to make choices. soon.

Jim said...

The problem being that our competitors are not interested in our overheads, our social problems or even our historical lead in the great race. We may have had the Raj in India, fought the opium wars against China in the past, but these Countries now own the whip hand. The rules have changed and the only criterion that counts is the bottom line. Norwich Union pay the market value of labour, so do Sony, Dyson and everyone else. There is mass poverty in India because they have nothing like the welfare state we do. China doesn’t either, if we want to compete with them we need to be like them. We cannot allow the flabby State hold us back against the tiger economies. That is tough and will be difficult for some, but there is absolutely no alternative.

We need to scrap the welfare state and let everyone sink or swim. Those that cannot or will not work will suffer. They can live in shantytowns and eat out of soup kitchens for all I care. Lots of ‘poor but honest’ people will suffer, that is sad for them, but they are holding us back. That sounds harsh, but what are the alternative?

1) Carry on regardless? Not an option, we are penniless.
2) Protectionism? Nope.
3) Job creation? Been there, done it and we have the tee shirts.
4) Spend millions ‘training people for non-existing jobs? Waste of time and money.


The state cannot create real jobs, only the free market can do this. The free market has spoken, these people are unemployable. Close the system down as it is no longer fit for purpose, free the market and let the price of labour find its own level.

If we want manufacturing to return to this Country we need realistic wage levels. That will only happen when people are prepared to compete for work. If the Poles can come here and work for a defacto £5 an hour or less, then everyone else can.

Mr Ecks said...

It is like de-mobbing an army, the money that paid for them needs to be returned to the people who earned it and from whom the state stole it. Yes Bottler is spending borrowed money now but they still steal 500 thousand million
+ pounds off the people of this country each year. Imagine if 99% of that was handed back (by the abolition of tax by and large)to the working people of this country. It would be the greatest "stimulus" ever and it would be real not bogus funny money.We could begin to rebuild esp if the bullshit laws followed the taxes into the outer darkness

microdave said...

"One outcome of the proposals is that if they are going to find enough Doctors to do the estimated 2,500 'capability assessments' every day, they are likely to find themselves employing agency Doctors sourced from far and wide across the globe"

The Daily Mash has it sussed:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/half-a-million-benefit-cheats-throw-themselves-down-the-stairs-200910052111/

Spartacus said...

The issue is not one of employment, but of purchasing power.

You would have to be thick, mental, or brainwashed to take a minimum wage job when all it can get you is a dingy flat, and a life of shopping in the bargain bin at Tesco's. I find the idea of employing people using the lowest common denominator to be very unsavory. And then you get the cunting employment agencies, whose sole reason to exist is to allow employers to fuck them over even more.

There is a covenant that has been broken between the working man and society. If you do a full weeks work, you should have enough to look after yourself. For many people, that is no longer the case. You are looking at £30k + salary to mortgage the worst house these days. If you can't build something for yourself, and your family, why sweat for someone else?

Individual greed is a dangerous thing. We need a government that are held to a higher standard, not a lower one!

Jefferson was right. Those that give away their liberty for comfort or security deserve neither.

General Stiltskin said...

I agree with Jim to a point, that point being that the whole point of a country is that some people are in it; and some people aren't.

We don't have to trade everything with the world on their terms; they are bound by a complex network of international law, and we need to use that in our own narrow interest.

It might be in China's interest for us to manufacture shit loads of schmutter over there to import here to raise living standards there to *maybe* sell some of what's left of our shit over there... the trouble is the last bit... by the time they're rich enough to buy any of it (assuming they stop saving so much), all out manufacturing will be dead.

We need some ethnonationalist protectionism and oriental-style economic nationalism (like Japan's MITI and zaibatsu/keiretsu and Korea's Jaebol systems), building our national brand again and positioning us for long-term export strength.

You don't just throw your hands up, and give everything our ancestors lied, cheated, stole, and fought for up for free!
It's a Darwinian struggle - and we need to reawaken our ruthlessness to squeeze the world for our own benefit... it's obviously better to be the fucker than the fucked.

Greed is good.

Part of "neo-protectionism" is not levying tax on small businesses, and being utterly biased in incubating them; setting up special economic zones; and minimising paperwork so they can get established and offer real jobs and growth.

I'm afraid, the likes of Comet and Argos need taxing the fuck out of, so that the only luxuries the unemployed can afford is fruit.

Jim said...

Protectionism will restrict our freedom. We do not need to restrict freedoms; we need to extend freedom as far as possible. Why should I be forced to buy, for example, only British cars? The Germans, Italians, French can and do make better cars, does anyone seriously think this Country would be improved by the Nation’s roads clogged up with British rust buckets?

Who gets protection and who fends for themselves? What about the kettle manufacturer and the like? Where is my protection? The only way to create jobs is a free market. Every man for himself. I don’t care about what the Chinese, Japan etc protect there businesses, I only care what happens here. What we need to liberate the market and force the market to provide jobs.

The last thing we need is the likes of Argos paying more tax. Argos employ people and so do Comet.

We need tax driven down as much as possible and then a bit further just to be safe.

Anonymous said...

Jim - You said "Protectionism will restrict our freedom"

Then in the next paragraph you said "I don’t care about what the Chinese, Japan etc protect there businesses".

So what do you want?? If you have no trade barriers at all every job will just get exported to the cheapest country, (and will include your company and its Polish workers). But that only works for a time. Japan found out some years ago when they started exporting work to South Korea. After a few years the Koreans decided they were worth a bit more, and the work went to Malaysia. And so on.... How long do you think the Chinese and Indians are going to put up with doing our work for 50p/hr?

The French and Germans are quite happy to buy up our businesses, but seem to have Government backing to keep other countries hands off their interests. A situation I would like to see over here, instead of the shower of shite we have at the moment, who are happy to sell us down the river.

And, as it so happens, the British CAN build good cars - unfortunately it takes overseas management to do it.

Jim said...

We should have no trade barriers at all. You are correct that the easiest, cheapest work will go to the cheapest labour costs. That already happens and most of us benefit from it. That means that if you are doing a third World type job then you can you can expect Third World type wages. I see nothing wrong with that. Why should anyone expect to live in the top ten per cent of the World’s earning cohort if you are doing a job that could be done by two billion of the World’s poorest workers? If we are to compete with these Countries we need to get our cost base down to compete with them:

1) Scrap the minimum wage.
2) Scrap welfare benefits.
3) Scrap red tape and pointless regulation.
4) Scrap the huge tax burden.
5) Er, that’s it


Give our companies a fighting chance. We need to learn the lessons of the South Koreans, i.e. if you undercut one Country, don’t get too big for your boots or someone will undercut you. 50 pence an hour? Well be careful not to ask for too high an increase or else you could be looking for a job if someone is willing to do it for 49 pence and hour.


Harsh? Well perhaps, but life is harsh. We lost a major contract six months ago because we were undercut by people who had lower labour costs. We had to lay of our casual/agency staff and remploy them on cheaper rates. Some of them were not happy and vowed never to work for us again and we now employ people who are glad of the work.

One of them came groveling back after finding that his labour was not worth as much as he thought it should be. I was was proved right and he was proved wrong by the only measure that counts, THE FREE MARKET.

General Stiltskin said...

Jim,

You are why I hate Libertarians... you don't believe in putting your own people first; you just believe in putting yourself first, like selfish short-sighted cunts.

Read: http://www.sethf.com/essays/major/libstupid.php

It's cunts like you that support globalisation and are happy to see our jobs go to third world corruptocracies.
Libertarianism is ultimately against the notion of countries or ethnic state... It's Libertarian horseshit that led the Tories to start the flood of immigrants into this country... and left the door open for Labour to let even more in and fuck our country even more.

If Libertarians don't believe in countries, why don't they fuck off to America - land of the fat; home of the fat.

You don't seem to know much about east asian development... and consequently you contradict yourself.

They are NOT libertarian free markets... they are protectionist and interventionist... the South Korean model is essentially BNP policy: economic nationalism - you put your own people first, and fuck the rest.
If your cars are shit, you subsidise them better (either directly, or indirectly through education and taxation)... that's how east asian development works (and yes, one of my degrees is in the subject, before you ask).

Argos might employ people, but they wouldn't have a business if it weren't for the benefits system... Argos and Aldi are "benefits-by-proxy".

Like most Libertarians... you like the theory, but you don't like the practice, when it bites you on the arse.

Jim said...

General Stiltskin

“you don't believe in putting your own people first; you just believe in putting yourself first”

Absolutely guilty as charged. Whoever ‘my own’ people are. If by ‘my own people’ you mean the people I share an Island, then I know nothing of their lives. Why should I? I have never met 99% of them, they mean nothing to me, so it is no concern to me how they live and I have no interest in their lives. By the same token, they should have no influence on my lifestyle either. 'My people' are me, the wife and the kids and a few others.

It's cunts like you that support globalisation and are happy to see our jobs go to third world corruptocracies.

Again, guilty as charged. I buy products based on cost\benefits a trade off between best quality and price, if the quality is acceptable and the price is acceptable then the Country of origin is completely unimportant. If people want to compete, improve the quality or the price of their goods.

You may feel different, but try this little experiment. Go round your house and write down a list of every possession, from your TV down to your socks, you have and write down the Country of origin for those possessions. I bet you support globalisation too, like the rest of us. Globalisation wouldn’t exist if people didn’t buy foreign made goods.

If Libertarians don't believe in countries, why don't they fuck off to America - land of the fat; home of the fat.

Home of the fat? Geez, plenty here get fat off my taxes.

You don't seem to know much about east asian development... and consequently you contradict yourself.

They are NOT libertarian free markets... they are protectionist and interventionist...



So? What difference does that make to me? If they want to protect their markets that is their affair. Our markets should be open because it benefits us. If they subsidise their goods with their money then that is fine by me. I score out of the deal because I get good deals using their money. A win win in my book.

Argos might employ people, but they wouldn't have a business if it weren't for the benefits system... Argos and Aldi are "benefits-by-proxy".

I agree to an extent that big business makes profit out of the benefit culture. Tesco made £1.8 billion quid, if I remember correctly and no doubt a good chunk of that is from benefits.

Like most Libertarians... you like the theory, but you don't like the practice, when it bites you on the arse.

When does this happen? I lose out in the free market, but I take it on the chin.

Anonymous said...

"That means that if you are doing a third World type job then you can you can expect Third World type wages". Define "Third World Type Job" - Could it be Shovelling shit? Digging coal a mile below ground? Laying bricks? Machining intricate components? Assembling printed circuit boards? Providing technical support? Managing a business?

All of these are done in both the Third world, AND in the First? world. So you would, presumably, be more than happy to take a massive wage cut, because someone in China can run a business for £2/hr? You never answered my question - you want no barriers at all, yet "don't care" what the Chinese do. Make your mind up!

"If we want manufacturing to return to this Country we need realistic wage levels. That will only happen when people are prepared to compete for work. If the Poles can come here and work for a defacto £5 an hour or less, then everyone else can."

The Poles are happy to do this because they are mostly living in shared accomodation, without all their family members. Do you seriously think everyone in this country is going to be happy doing that? AND I'm not talking about the layabout scroungers, but decent folk who just want to have a reasonable standard of living, and not be shafted all the time.

If you want a totally level playing field why not try communism? Oh, sorry, I forgot. Even that doesn't mean everyone is equal - just that some are more equal than others.....

Jim said...

"That means that if you are doing a third World type job then you can you can expect Third World type wages". Define "Third World Type Job" - Could it be Shovelling shit? Digging coal a mile below ground? Laying bricks? Machining intricate components? Assembling printed circuit boards? Providing technical support? Managing a business?

That is all true and all interesting. It just goes to show you that these people should not be excluded from the markets just because the live in what used to be the Third World. Their labour is cheaper for a whole host of reason, less Government regulations, less Government full stop, lower standard of living, lower wage demands etc. If we want to compete with them we need to lower our costs and some of us will also have to lower our expectations. You have provided too many examples, but if the printed circuit board tech earns 50p an hour in China, we need roughly the same wage rates here if we want those circuits mass produced here. Or else we need to have a USP that the Chinese cannot match. Harsh, but true.

All of these are done in both the Third world, AND in the First? world. So you would, presumably, be more than happy to take a massive wage cut, because someone in China can run a business for £2/hr?

You don’t have to worry on that score mate. There are plenty of people who would happily undercut me to beat us on a tender, by Christ I have lost money and had to take wage cuts to survive, but I have also undercut others and cost them jobs too. No doubt we have all done that. If people start doing my job at two quid an hour, I need to grit my teeth and get on with it, I do not think that I should sit on my arse and spend his tax money on my upkeep, though.
Let me clarify my position on free markets. After all is said and done, free markets are the best system of capitalism. Things go wrong and sometimes markets make grave errors and sometimes they cause great upheavals, but long term, the freer the market the better it works. China would have a better, more prosperous Country if they had a free market. I do not live in China, however, I live here. I campaign for free markets here, not because they benefit China, but because they benefit us. If China had an economy like ours they would be richer.

The Poles are happy to do this because they are mostly living in shared accomodation, without all their family members. Do you seriously think everyone in this country is going to be happy doing that?

Whether or not we are ‘happy’ is not relevant, the only thing that counts is what is necessary. I have no interest in what my workers do with their wages, if they send it home, that is their affair, if they piss the whole lot against a wall, their money their choice. If they are happy to work for a fiver an hour who I am I to deny them that chance? These people come here to earn a living by out competing the locals, so what? Isn’t what make capitalism work?

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