Oh, an object lesson in how to inflame the situation and send the whole thing out of control.This idiot has just ended any chance of any peaceful resolution. Along with the Righteous Horrible Monster, John Denham, putting all the blame for all the trouble on people who weren't even present at the last demonstration, there is now no further discussion to have. The Righteous have stated that they will not listen. The Muslim leaders have stated that they will never stop trying to make this an Islamic country. I'm glad I'm not a Muslim. Things are going to get very unpleasant now.As for talking about calm and reasonable outcomes, I give up. Faced with cretins of this calibre, conversation is futile.
One Day Islam will prevail? Over my dead bloated rotting corpse.
Its not this cnunt we have to worry about, it's the fucking liberal politcal correct fucking fucktards we have in our public.I can hear them now "Anjem Choudary is just a minority, the majority of Muslims are good people. Islam is a religion of peace"WAKE UP UK! These cunts want to KILL YOU!
I personally, could not give a toss where you come form, who or what you choose to worship, or what you decide to do with your spare time.but if these joyless pricks think they are ever going to tell me what I can and cant do, as long as I'm not hurting anyone else, they can suck my salty cheese-encrusted cock.you like to play chess? love listening to music? like nothing better after a long day at work than vegetating in front of the tv for a bit? well tough shit, becuase if these clowns get their way expect to see them all banned as 'un-islamic'... and I'm not making this up either.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8203830.stmand I used to think the religious right in the US were uptight mongs.but for the life of me I just cannot understand why these clowns are so hell-bent on making life a misery for everyone else.
Pick a side. Play the game. Labour wins whoever loses. Which is everyone. Bastards. A silver lining, but at least some muslims oppose Sharia. Thank fuck.
The rot has set people. The righteous have made it extemely difficult to counter any of this Muslim bullshit.If you dare say anything you are labelled a racist. you can loose your job, there goes your mortgage, there goes your credit rating. You are on the shit heap.So what the fuck can we do?
All sounds very reasonable to me !
Don't be such a soft cunt EnglishmanBEOWULF spake, bairn of Ecgtheow:"Sorrow not, sage! It beseems us betterfriends to avenge than fruitlessly mourn them.Each of us all must his end abidein the ways of the world; so win who mayglory ere death! When his days are told,that is the warrior's worthiest doom.Rise, O realm-warder! Ride we anon,and mark the trail of the mother of Grendel.No harbor shall hide her -- heed my promise! --enfolding of field or forested mountainor floor of the flood, let her flee where she will!But thou this day endure in patience,as I ween thou wilt, thy woes each one."
Where the fucks McEgan when you wish to enquire his own personal thesis. Choudary bleats: - The U.A.F. and New Labours "selfish aims and points of view".Is McEgan now "getting with the programme" himself? Being re-educated somewhere by Comrade Wymann Bennett, as to which avenue now leads to Rome?I also notice that "brother" Anjem made a big play on the fact that the biggest industries in Britain today were "gambling and pornography". That's odd. I thought it was Social fucking security, that Choudary himself has leeched off the tax payer for many a year. Strange that he doesn't mention this in this Islamic Utopian dream that he wishes to pedal. If there's no dhimmis, then who the fuck is gonna support him in future times, Or does he just assume that he will naturally be Ayatollah of Britanistan?
There is no "Islam Lite".There will be. They will undergo their renaissance just as all religions do. Until then alas, they'll burn witches and heretics, just as we did.We have it behind us. They have it ahead of them. It won't be pretty.
This reminds me, OH: did you get your shotgun?Can you recommend a good value gun locker?
Of course I have a shotgunDon't pay more than £250 for a locker. The Police will inspect it anyway.
Send your hate mail here :http://www.johndenham.org.uk/contact_me
Great to see that Rowan Williams has finally embraced his true calling as a member of the global Caliphate.
The bastards have won anyway, I want to put one of my animals in the freezer to eat for myself, no I can not kill the animal with a pistol to kill it in the most humane method, I am not allowed to do so as pistols have been banned.However a babarian from the middle ages under the guise of the muslim brotherhood can walk up to my animal, cut it's throat without pre killing / stunnimg and let the poor animal bleed to death in terror, the cunts have wone already!These cunts want putting down, this is just the same as making a rope and asking the thugs to hang you with it!The best job I ever had was shooting terrorists in the southern africa reigon of the world. I loved it so, I did for a nominal fee, if I won the lottery and had enough to support myself / family I would do it for free.And if the governments in the U.K. had not banned guns we would have a chance.
I got the C4 snowmail toay, if that was all I read I'd believe that it was the facist whites that went on the rampage in Lonodon - WTF?It cannot be an accident, these media mongs need sacking. How the hell do we sort out the country when the truth is distorted by the publicly owned media?Speaking of delusional mongs, that choudry is a prime example. Does he really think that the UK will be dragged back to the seventh century quietly? I won't, as others have said; you believe whatever the delusional crap you want, but you leave me out of it (and anyone else that wants to be left alone).I'm happy to see that chowder's gang think the socialists are scum too (including 'respect') - perfect, you traitorous cunts."Krishnan here ...It's a strange day with lots of interesting news but nothing that stands out as an obvious lead so we're ploughing our own furrow. We'll be poking away at rising fears in the government and police that football hooligans, nationalists and racists are coming together and taking to the streets. Last night's disturbances in Harrow in which hundreds of anti-fascist demonstrators turned out to chase off an anti-Muslim demonstration at a mosque, follow a summer of attempted protests by new groups like English Defence League. They're mostly anti-Muslim - they would say anti-extremist. At least four specialist police units are looking into them and politicians are starting to sound alarmed. "
Now it's time for Harriet Harmong's moment of glory - her Joan of Arc crusade against the people that really want to fuck her sex over.Invented stats on how women are underpaid - you ain't seen nothin' yet you stupid, deluded cunt.Come on Polly - time to get your empty head above the parapet too.NOW you've got the prospect of something to piss and moan about.
Oh how I fucking try, try to understand, try to be a good fucking citizen and try to get along with my fellow human beings even though they rail against me.Even though I am of no religious faith I try to understand and except religious faiths.I seek not to discriminate a man by the colour of his skin, religion nor his political persuasions.I seek harmony in the UK and the world...but some may say I am just a dreamer, but I am not the only one (John Lennon) and the world will be as one...Bollox.Watching that video I see that any dialogue with Islam is futile and I will lay down my life to stop the flag of Islam being flown over this corrupt parliament. That corrupt parliament that tried to make excuses for you, which I believed, but I believe no more!Anjem Choudary should be wiped from the face of Britain, he is an islamic cunt and not worthy of life.I declare, unilaterally, war against any outside body that tries to fuck with my way of life.
I declare, unilaterally, war against any outside body that tries to fuck with my way of life.Catchy!
He was so cool he would great you in Yoruba and say bye in Swahili. Cool, cool, he used to stop for amber lights, so cool, we called him the Refrigerator. But after Harrow, Luton and Oldham he knew to be in the Umma was to be very, very hot.
Piss off nonce!
Note in the last few days 66,000 Pakistanis have been given Visa to come to Britain. Check were only made on 29 you know they will all have British Passports after a year. Even without that they can vote in British elections as commonwealth citizens. Labour wants their vote it’s just like the unions a block vote. Remember also houses in Croydon with 30 postal votes no checks are made as it suits this corrupted government.
How's your libertarian party going to fair when the muslims make up 50% of the population.You're a fucking idiot OH but at least no ones calling you racist.
>Of course I have a shotgunWhat make, what model, where do you source your shells?>Don't pay more than £250 for a locker.What make, what model?So we're clear, I'm not calling you out as a gobshite. Yet.
Am I asking too much OH, just to work, have a smoke and a drink now and again?Being a Scot am I asking too much that the English should have some fucking backbone and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH?I read Readwald's blog today and was profundly struck by Phillip Pullman's words and had to ask myself many questions.I'll probably read this tomorrow and think...Yeah, I stand by every word I said, even though I could have said it better.
I think everyone should chill out with their attacks on the media, simply because they are utterly meaningless. Why? Most people know they distort and lie. In general people know where their morals and integrity lie and Sharia and Islam are not part of them.
Re shotguns - how does someone with no-one to vouch for them get one?R
Is this the PR coup Mr choudray and co have been waiting for ??This doesnt sit too well with me , it surely must come under the catagory of incitement let alone its boasting .You can only conclude they dont like Britain , for all you Labour/liberal idiots that thought it would work .This fool goes and sets the scene.Enoch was right I too see the Tiber foaming ."sharia flag over No10" cleary our hospitality is being abused .It seems he doesnt really think where the taxes come from to pay for benefits either .Londinistan productions ?? says it all really wonder if they get goverment help.I just hope the TUC nutters see this , dont say I didnt tell you so .
>Re shotguns - how does someone with no-one to vouch for them get one?You don't. If you really can't find any chums who are of "good standing", then tail on to a local shooting club or the Sealed Knot or another black powder era reenactment group.Pop trivia: did you know that a shotgun certificate lets you hold a 2" smoothbore cannon?
Couldn't help noticing the "Islam will end the National Lottery" comment .. .. does this mean that the lottery should stop funding Islamic groups? Paying for your own demise seems a little, well if nothing else, short sighted.
We will be outnumbered soon.Regardless, I will lying on the floor, choking in blood before the flag of Islam flies over 10 downing st.The EDL have tried very, very hard to spread the message that they are PEACEFUL and the UAF have caused all the trouble.Watching the BBC yesterday put a cold chill up my spine - they really aren't on our side, are they? The pressure cooker which is the UK clicks up a notch
This man is not an 'extremist.' He is an utterly orthodox, pious Muslim doing exactly what Mohammed tells him to do in the Koran and all Muslims to do in perpetuity.It's the dopey Labour 'moderate Muslims' who are out of line, with their 'fear of racist attacks' or concerns about 'Islamophobia.'To believe otherwise is to misunderstand what is ranged against us.
Many have been warning about this for years, including the BNP, but you wouldnt have it. Now what are YOU going to do about it. All the time bleating on about how in the know you are, you really know nothing, you may want to live in peace with the muslim but the muslim wants nothing of the sort.
He should be banged up in Belmarsh and fed a diet of pork pies and then sect to Helmand Province in the front line with the British Army.I mean that most sincerely folksFatwah,what Fatwah !!!!!!
That's the most calm, reasoned speech I've ever seen Mr Choudray make. He even said a polite hallo to non-Muslims.It's far more infomative to see him supporting 7/7 and saying dead Kaffirs are never innocent.WV glons. 'Glans' would have been apt for Mr Choudary.
"A.B. Gordon (real name K.McEgan), 12 September 2009 23:52 He was so cool he would great you in Yoruba and say bye in Swahili. Cool, cool, he used to stop for amber lights, so cool, we called him the Refrigerator...."Yes, but what did his cock taste of, McEgan. Come on, do tell. We all know you've had a good suck of that old Muslim cock.You utter fucking NONCE !!!
One assumes, that were one to criticise him, one would be done for inflaming racial tension? As were Channel 4 after their doco on hate preachers in Mosques in B'ham?This is ALL New Labour's fault. Needs to go viral, as it will further exacerbate the massive haemorraghing of votes that the ISA idiocy will cause.
"Regardless, I will lying on the floor, choking in blood before the flag of Islam flies over 10 downing st."more fool you, then. the speaker in the video asks for dialogue to compare points of law between islam and the current system. he does so in a polite and reasoned manner. so where is the problem? either Islam makes for a worse society than secularism in the West, or it doesn't. let's see if ABSOs or a flogging make the streets safer. if islam is worse, how is it worse than the communistic dictatorship of new labour? as we know very well, we are being crucified in taxes and loss of liberties by the most corrupt evil bunch who ever called themselves a british Government. people are living in fear in many places, yes even in CCTV Britain. OH and Leg-Iron and all the rest scream for change in rage and horror at each of new-labour's stupid vindictive control-freak emanations. yet when someone wants to follow a different way, the pack mentality sets in and we mumble about shotguns. the guy's got a big black beard but so what? he sees a problem with what we have. yet we clump together, our patriotism is being used against us, as these external "enemies" are manufactured and wheeled out. the muslim says there's a problem in Britain. is there a problem? if there is, let's not jump up and down because a black guy points it out. islam is a superstition, but what else is belief in "parliament" or "democracy" or, as above, fear of a green flag on a building? our current Statist system is exactly the same as islam, it's people doing things to other people, using force if necessary. that's all it is. when seen clearly through the fog, the Muslim is not an enemy, he's just a guy caught up in the same bullshit.
Richard,Choudary (the "black guy" in the video) is not calling for dialogue. He is no position to compromise. At all. Are you expecting him to "negotiate" by re-writing the Koran to suit Britain?His insistence that Islam is the answer to societies problems are not based on any factual elements are they? Name a Muslim country that has a peaceful, harmonious, technologically advanced system of government. They don't exist because Islam and Sharia cannot escape the grasp of clerics who insist that because it was done this way 1400 years ago, it must be done so today.Western and Eastern religions have been through all of this. Islam hasn't yet. So they are still burning withces and stoning gays and quivering at the mere mention of the all powerful Sky Pixie. I'm not happy to go back 400 years in history just in case I might "offend" someone if I told them to stick their medievil ways up their arse.
'if islam is worse, how is it worse than the communistic dictatorship of new labour?'see my link above - for all their insane control freak ways and idiots like Harperson pushing their ludicrous agendas, I am yet to see Neu Arbeit try to ban chess or music.also, if you want to wait till we DO have sharia forced upon us, how would you like the female members of your family stopped from going to university? any gay friends? they're going to love the treatment they get as well.islam is a backward religion based on intolerance and hatred. and mohammed is a paedo. the dirty backward fucker.
I suddenly have a feeling that the the wheel has already fallen off. Fuck what is going to happen next?.
Well, my guess would be our first winter riots.Let's face it, the Casuals are used to cold winter football terraces.
Aaah.... Islam... the 'Religion of Peace' has got so much to offer.... so much that we can learn from..Like Paedophilia, for example :12-year-old bride dies in labourNo wonder that nonces like McEgan find Islam so appealing...
I'm keeping an eye on the news from Trafalgar Square. The Guardian/Independent/BBC already blaming "right wing extremists" and then from The Star:A RACIAL battle of Trafalgar is set to rage today with white Brits and Muslims warring on London’s streets.http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/98478/City-prepares-for-race-riot
>Name a Muslim country that has a peaceful, harmonious, technologically advanced system of government.Malaysia (again). What do I win?
Sounds like a declaration of war on my way of life to me, or at the very least an admission of a subversive agenda.Now the question is, who led us into the situation that is about to pitch us into a new Crusades and for what reason?Oh another question is: What are the odds on whether Labour will postpone the next election? I might have a punt...
I have sent the link for this vid. to most of my email contacts and posted it on my Facebook page.Everyone needs to see this.
OH, islam is totalitarian, and irrational, and i don't expect Choudray to compromise, because he's blinkered and fanatical. but our current system is superstitious and irrational. the gods are "socialism", "inclusiveness" "reducing carbon footprints" and whatever other nebulous fiction the politicos use to tax and harass us. the net result is the same, we allow ourselves to be controlled, so do the muslims. the basis for control in each instance is the threat of force by the authotities, but mainly our irrational wish to preserve the system which boots us in the nuts and pelts us with turds(!) as for the paedo argument, i thought people who post here would be suspicious of the "it's for the good of the children" argument.our own government wants people (child-carers, youth leaders, school-run drivers) on a database to prove they're safe to look after kids - in reality it'a "prove-you-aren't-twisted" tax. and the current government guidelines to teach 5-year olds about gays and masturbation is sick. instead of the sky-god it's the state-god. but again, the result is the same, loss of childhood innocence. unless we wake up, we can't blame the muslims for living in their own dream-world. it's curious that the "flag of islam over 10 downing street" was one person's fate worse than death - sounds like a religious view to me. reaction to a blasphemy. not unlike the irrational hatred from certain muslims, in fact exactly the same.
Blogger Stuart said... Send your hate mail here : http://www.johndenham.org.uk/contact_me 12 September 2009 23:12I have already!I hope he can weather the coming whirlewind
mmmmmmmmmm..........He doesn't like the National Lottery much does he?!
As somebody above has pointed out, there are one or two reasonable civilised Muslim countries, where you can get a drink and headscarves are considered optional. Malaysia, and arguably Turkey (secular but lots of Muslims.)Turks are Muslim like I'm Christian - don't take it too seriously, maybe a carol service at Christmas, no head-banging stuff. So 'Muslim Lite' does exist and I hope we see more of it.
Richard - I posted comment above.I am not a Christian but I hold Christian values as our society was founded on them.The reason for the "flag of islam" comment comes not from religious hatred, and trying to compare our current Labour government to totalitarian Islam is completely stupid - have you looked into Sharia? I am no fan of New Labour, neither is anyone else here, but you have to concede they are nowhere near as barbaric as Mssr Choudary and co would propose.Islam to me represents the worst aspects, along with (very occasionally) the best qualities of humankind. Many muslims are serious about taking over, and if the current population stats continue, it's a strong possibility under our democratic system, that one day we will be outnumbered and be forced to submit to:75% tax for non-muslimsBeing traded as slaves for Muslim owners.Being unable to convict rapists without 4 witnesses etc.Read about Wahabi Saudi Arabian law and you get an idea.Please explain how this compared in any way to the status quo in the UK today!I am sure we can find a peaceful co-existence under modern values, but unfortunately people like Choudary and Al Hanza make that possibility less likely.
"Muslim Lite", fuck off anon.
British young muslim, Policy Exchange thinktank poll 2007 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1540895/Young-British-Muslims-getting-more-radical.html37% of 16 to 24-year-olds would prefer living under Sharia law than British law 74% of 16 to 24-year-olds prefer Muslim women to choose to wear the hijab. 13% of 16 to 24-year-olds admire organisations like al-Qaeda that are prepared to fight the West33% of 16 to 24-year-olds believed that those converting to another religion should be excecuted.I presume the Labour party killing their families in illegal wars and then importing what is left, is also not helping the situation.
"islam has the economic answers"minus the oil revenues from the 57 majority islam states,and you are left with a combined GDP less than that of Spain.islam is shite.Urban11
Thanks for the reply, Anon. you make several good points, to which I will respond. Islam is, as you say, inherently unfair on non-muslims. I would say that it’s unfair on it’s own adherents too, since islam instils belief in belief in untruths ie god, jinns, angels etc as well as the right to impose force on other human beings, based upon these untruths. Christian values of the west have only become modified into values more suitable to humanity following the enlightenment. We burned plenty of witches, catholics, protestants and jews. in northern Ireland it’s not that long ago – a few decades – that gays were imprisoned , and kids’ playparks were locked up on Sundays. Not to mention burning /killing/harassment of catholics and protestants, which continues at a diminished intensity today. So the values of Christianity are – as a quick look at Deuteronomy or Leviticus will show , quite appallingly harsh to “unbelievers” - Christ himself came to bring “not peace but a sword” and said that it was better to cut your hand off than be cast into hell. Nevertheless, Christians for the most part allow the dictates of humanity to rule their dealings with their fellows; the few muslims I have met are similarly normal. So to compare “holy” texts is merely comparing one set of crazy nonsense with another, to see which is the least bad, and is a waste of time since they aren’t true anyway. I will compare the idiotic taxes and restrictions with the UK today, as you requested.Firstly, there is no status quo in the UK. It has changed for the worse over the last ten years and will continue to do so unless there is a fundamental change. So, exactly like your hypothetical non-muslims under sharia law we, the British populace, are taxed heavily; we are forbidden to bear arms; we seldom see justice for rapists, murderers, burglars etc etc because the sentences are too light and the prisons are full of “non-criminals” ie people who can’t pay fines, or who use drugs. (this may well be deliberate policy, if the streets are “dangerous” it’s a good excuse for more state control) We are watched by CCTV, our privacy is not respected, we are flung into the rain to smoke, we are now told what amount of alcohol we can drink! Laws will follow! The list of similarities between Islamic oppression and good old British oppression “run up one arm and down the other “ the difference is a small matter of degree only. if we aren’t slaves in our own country already we are pretty damned close. And this is my point. We are not comparing “bad” islam with “good” British society, we are comparing two sets of slave-holding systems. In each, the slaves believe they are better off, and the other set of slaves are fools.However, I have a suspicion that I would get fairer treatment from muslims if I converted to islam than I am getting from the current government, as a tax-paying so-called “citizen” Lastly, if we expect sympathy from muslims, we as tax-payers have funded a war which has killed a million iraquis, and hanged the head of state of a non-belligerent country. We paid for it, we didn’t rise up and refuse. Under the nueremberg principles, are we not complicit? I fear that IF England goes Islam, there will be many detailed and careful trials, of airport workers who handled US military flights, newscasters and TV execs who promoted biased reports, anyone in parliament who didn’t resign over the illegal war – and so on.
Malaysia is held up as a moderate Muslim country but try converting from Islam to Christianity and see where it gets you.http://islam-watch.org/AdrianMorgan/Malaysia-Religious-Freedom.htm
Richard:"Christ himself came to bring “not peace but a sword” and said that it was better to cut your hand off than be cast into hell."He didn't mean it literally and he urged his followers not to fight the Temple Guards. He urged them and us to turn the other cheek.He said 'Blessed are the peacemakers.'All Christians have had to overcome that in order to use the scriptures to justify bloodshed. They've done it many times, but they've always had to get around it and finally chunks of Christendom decided to take it literally via the Enlightenment. His 'sword' was of of conflict between believers and those they left behind - spiritual and familial conflict as some moved on and some stayed in the old Jewish ways.Mohammed was a warlord who enjoined his followers to rape women in front of their POW husbands to demoralise them, who aid that women were defective, and who sent his followers off to loot and murder many, many times, He also said Muslims should hate and fight Jews in perpetuity. ALL the mainstream and most minority sects of Islam have followed this and made the attitude into Sharia Law.Leviticus is a declaration of human rights compared with the Koran, Hadith, Surah."we as tax-payers have funded a war which has killed a million iraquis" No, Muslims killed nearly a million Iraqis, as Jihadists or BA'ath terrorists, and continue to do so. Allied-caused civilian casualties run into a few hundreds. All tragically dead for all that as happens in wars anywhere that's inhabited, but hundreds? Compared with scores of thousands per month from Islamic terrorism? "The list of similarities between Islamic oppression and good old British oppression “run up one arm and down the other “ the difference is a small matter of degree only."There's a world of difference between what's being imposed on us now by the corrupt political class and the centuries-old despotism and obscurantism of Islam, unchecked by Renaissance, Reformation or Enlightenment - they're nothing like each other.I imagine there must be millions of Muslims who'd prefer even our corrupted way of life to living in some Islamic shit-hole county where Western medicine's kept their grandfathers alive to dominate and bully their parents and themselves, while waiting hopelessly for their lovely non-technical traditional society to find them a way out of having to obey the local patriarch, his deputies, and the tribe, and where their ambitions and desires have no weight or value at all.Cube the misery for women and girls.'Illegal wars,' - legal by whose definition would be OK, I wonder? The Islamist - dominated United Nations? This place is paradise on earth compared with all the Islamic countries and it needs to be defended for its many good aspects, and not subverted and weakened further by untrue and defamatory comparisons.
richard,I've read your long-winded overblown comments and, well, quite frankly, I think you're a twat.Good night.WV: amsoneol - I'm sure you're that as well...
That isn't me Richard.Thanks for your post.cheers
MUSLIM MEN WANT THEIR WOMEN TO WEAR MASKS,OR BURKHAS AS THEY CALL THEM,BECAUSE THEIR WOMEN ARE SO FUCKING UGLY.THATS WHY THEY ALSO PREFER TO SHAG LITTLE BOYS UP THE ARSE
"Anonymous, 15 September 2009 02:53 MUSLIM MEN WANT THEIR WOMEN TO WEAR MASKS," etc.It must be painful to you to have nowhere suitable to live, now that South Africa's gone commie.Still, feel free to go and check it out for yourself.
RichardTake your point re the enlightenment but you are still wrong.The Sharia rules are more barbaric than current government - just because 700 years ago we were the same just proves how fast christian society advances, and how Islam is anti-advancement - that's why we don't all die when were 35 with no teeth.We are a much more laid back society and if this is slavery, I'd rather be a slave to Broon than to Abu al hack Mohammed.Saudi Sharia Law at its best"A Muslim man is not allowed to have sex while fasting, but is allowed to rub penis on female body. This is permissible with a slave (non-muslim) child over the age of 4"Not really comparable, Richard.
anon 20:37 - cheersNorth North Westerner and Anon 07:58; good points, i stand corrected. the comparison between religious and secular control is (i think) valid, but of course we are better off here than under islam. if not, muslims wouldn't want to live here. it seems to be the young ones who want sharia because they don't remember what it was like, and why their parents got the hell out. re: points not to be taken literally in the bible, i don't think that's a valid defence. all it means is that humane people can safely ignore the bad bits of their holy texts.i wasn't making a case for islam or sharia, it's faults are obvious. anon 19:52 - long-winded AND overblown? guilty, but these are synonyms, either would have done. try to be concise, if you please - i don't have all day. twat? almost certainly!
Richard, thanks for your courteous answer. Nice to have a civilised argument.However: "re: points not to be taken literally in the bible, i don't think that's a valid defence. all it means is that humane people can safely ignore the bad bits of their holy texts."That's not right.Sure enough, Christendom spent centuries enforcing its own 'peacefulness' - often at sword point, and so on. However, until the three great cultural upheavals of early modernity when toleration eventually seemed to the war-weary more attractive than proving that their own version of Christianity was right on the battlefield, it was at least conceivable that Christians should and could act gently to their neighbours by taking the bulk of Jesus' teachings and all his deeds seriously. Muslims don't have that luxury. Mohammed's words and deeds and advice and prophecies were almost all warlike, contemptible of the outsiders in perpetuity. It's been calculated that upward of 60% of the Koran's references to unbelievers is hostile: from merely contemptuous up to 'kill them until judgement day.'Non-violent Muslims can only "safely ignore the bad bits" in non-Islamic societies, such as what's left of Christendom, Israel, and bits and pieces of non-Muslim Asia. Everywhere else, ie. the Middle East, Muslim Africa, Central Asia and even Indonesia, for example, apostates get the chop.Ideology matters. After centuries of teaching 'blessed are the peacemakers,' a lot of Europeans and their former colonies believe stuff like that. Hence this blog.But teach children to hate kaffirs because their founder did so is a much tougher nut to crack.
North Northwester,thanks for the argument. a greater tolerance exists in the west, but whether this is in spite of, or because of, the tenets of Christianity is debatable. we have, as i pointed out, burned our own witches and scientists and guys who looked at monks in a funny way. nor has the 20th century been a glowing one for Christendom, if you start counting bodies. you are right in what you say,of course, but if the "best" religion or philosophy is the most peaceful and serene, both religions are inferior to atheism; no atheist army has ever been fielded!
Richard: “both religions are inferior to atheism; no atheist army has ever been fielded!”Hello again, Richard, you’re going to have to do better than that. The Nazi leaders were all atheists – barring a Celtic or Germanic mystic or two in the upper echelon of the SS. 12 million killed in holocaust plus other massacres and death camps. Plus the war dead of the wars the Nazis started. Christian soldiers or atheist, under atheist commanders; their families under threat of death for mutiny. Christianity, not guilty. The Soviet communists – all of whose leaders were atheists by law and by conviction, killed 25 to 35 million Soviet ‘citizens’ in massacres, the Gulag, show trials, forced labour and man-made famines. Plus the war dead of wars that the USSR started, and in some strange undead way still fight, under the KGB thug Putin and his stooges. Christianity, not guilty. Chinese communists killed 70 million or more in China and Tibet in its coup and subsequent massacres, mass starvations, mass purges, and so on. Not a Christian amongst the leadership as far as I know. Christianity, not guilty. Cambodia – good old French-tutored atheist intellectual Pol Pot killed one third of his country’s population. One third! Not a Christian in sight. Christianity, not guilty. Vietnam, huge massacres of those left behind when the Americans left. Cuba, where the dissidents are killed by ‘car accidents’ every night, and no-one ever stops to pick up the dead – not to say the hundreds murdered or ordered murdered in prisons by old atheist icon Che Guevara for his boss Castro. Christianity, not guilty. Millions of others murdered in Europe, South and Central America and Africa by godless Marxists in the name of the People – not Jesus. It’s been calculated that 200 million have died under Islam over 13 centuries of conquest, repression, piracy and slavery in which the males are almost all castrated and almost all of them died from their infected wounds.Now I’ll grant you that Christian armies have in the past massacred POWs and citizens in sacked cities, committed anti-Semitic attacks, and there were Dark Ages forced conversions by newly Christian kings and princes plus witch burnings in Europe (or hangings in England) and the Orthodox Serbs were killing Muslims up until the vaguely [and probably insincerely] Christian Bill Clinton and definite closet Catholic Tony Blair decided to stop them. Political dynastic violence between truly Christian armies in Europe did happen, and were the norm for the aristocracy once dynastic marriage failed to solve problems, and were vile – but again, often ameliorated by bishops insisting the battles usually be held away from towns or croplands at harvest time. Northern Ireland had religion as a marker – but competing nationalisms was the true motive for the crimes.But after the Counter-reformation and 150 years of wars of religion and western Christianity, that faith learned to live up to its ideals a bit. The very idea of human rights was derived from William of Ockham’s ideas of limited government, property rights, and a separation of Church and State. Christianity, not guilty. Result count. Numbers count, and I’d rather risk being governed by people who’ve had ‘blessed are the peacemakers’, and ‘love thy neighbour’ drummed into them from childhood, than all that woeful tosh about Allah punishing the sinners in perpetuity, with a little help from his faithful friends.As for atheists and political statistics – no thanks. Any nation ruled by a group who believe that people are little more than clever meat will: sooner rather than later, be introduced to the butcher
Theists hold up Communism and Nazism, along with the regime of the Cambodian tyrant Pol Pot, as evidence of murderous "atheist" tyrannies that have caused the deaths of tens of millions. While it may be true that Communism portrayed itself as "godless," it did not wage war in the name of atheism, nor were its founders and leaders raised as atheists. They were, in fact, preponderantly Jewish and Christian. Communist Manifesto writer Karl Marx was born a Jew, the grandson of two rabbis, and was converted to Christianity at age 6. Leon Trotsky, whose real name was Lev Bronstein, was born and raised a Jew but later declared himself "an internationalist."Josef Stalin's "very religious" mother named him after St. Joseph, and wanted him to become a priest. Stalin himself supposedly claimed that his father had been a priest, and he was purportedly "damaged by violence" while being "raised in a poor priest-ridden household." As a youth, Stalin spent five years in a Greek Orthodox seminary, after which he purportedly renounced his religion. In his later years, Stalin apparently embraced Christianity once more. As Stalin biographer Edvard Radinsky remarks, "During his mysterious retreat [of June 1941] the ex-seminarist had decided to involve the aid of the God he had rejected." Radinsky likewise chronicles a number of religious comrades in Stalin's immediate circle. It is evident that, whether for good or bad, religion played a significant role in Stalin's life.Adolf Hitler was raised a Catholic, and in a speech in 1922 he remarked, "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter..." In his autobiography Mein Kampf (1.2), Hitler stated: Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.Throughout his life, Hitler invoked God and "the Lord," demonstrating his religious, not atheistic, nature. Pol Pot was raised a Buddhist and Catholic. In this regard, Dr. Ian Harris, a Reader in Religious Studies at the University College of St. Martin, relates: "In one of his early writings Pol Pot wrote approvingly that the 'democratic regime will bring back the Buddhist moralism because our great leader Buddha was the first to have taught [democracy].'" Although in comparison to the Abrahamic religions its history is far less violent, Buddhism has not been entirely devoid of atrocity in its spread and practice.
Post a Comment