Sunday, 23 August 2009

Where To Start The Timeline ?



The Independent alone this morning, starts with the shooting down of a civilian Iranian Airliner by the USS Vincennes in the previous July to Pan Am 103.

More Smoke and Mirrors from the Americans, and Mandelson is denying everything.

27 comments:

Wardog said...

Indeed, there area number of things, possibly their time line should have started form the American bombing of Tripoli in 1986.

Around 66 American jets, some of them flying from British bases launched an attack killing over 100 innocent civilians. including Hanna Gaddafi, the adopted baby daughter of the Libyan leader.

To this date, America has never apologised for these episodes.

john in cheshire said...

I'm not sure what the West has to apologise for. The muslims of this world have been trying to exterminate us and the Jews for ever. When they suffer a setback, that's to our credit and their discomfort. The muslims have been the wrong-doers for centuries; probably since the paedophile muhammad. If there was any justice in the (Western)world, then our armies would finish what they failed to do in the Crusades. Extirpation of Libya, Lebanon and Iran by chemical means would be a start to returning the world to a more civilised trajectory. Our army is paid to protect us, the indigenous population of the UK. Not fighting on behalf of heathen muslims. That's about the same as our soldiers being mercenaries. Is that what we want. I personally would prefer them to be brought home, to stage a coup and execute all the socialists who have presumed to rule over us for the past god knows how many decades. Then they can cleanse the country of all the ethnics. That would be worth paying for.

Paul Pinfield said...

I see the nutter is out this afternoon.

Rab C. Nesbitt said...

http://tinyurl.com/la72oj

Anonymous said...

Calling their prophet a paedophile is not appropriate or helpful. English kings married their juvenile relatives in the past, so judging historical events with modern eyes is a bit silly if you are to draw modern conclusions from that judgement.

At the time of the Crusades the Moors were more civilised than your own ancestors - unless yours were living in the Caliphate of course.

Anonymous said...

john in cheshire said.

i said

here here i'll drink to that

bring them home and let them cleanse our OWN country from these Heathen occupying forces

F**k the oil

GCooper said...

Anonymous 16:10 "appropriate or helpful"? The myth of the civilised caliphate?

What is this, a BBC seminar?

Islam was spread by the sword and rules with fear.

'John in Cheshire's' opinions may be extreme, but your moral relativism and historical revisionism is guaranteed to encourage their popularity.

A.B. Gordon said...

Islam is not the enemy. 2009 Maghrabi released...a few years ago Quaddafi verballed up every Provo that has been to Libya. Co-incidence?Answers on a postcard please to A Gordon, Meigh, County Armagh.

Anonymous said...

Algebra. Alchemy. The alphabet, the numbers we use. Our empire was spread by the bullet. That of Spain by the smallpox. But in 700 AD the average brit was living in a mudhut. Thems the facts Im afraid.

And who killed more Jews? Arabs or Christians?

I got no time for ragheads either btw, but facts are facts.

Anonymous said...

John in cheshire and co.:
You kust be bloody joking!!! We have been invading their countries like it's a bloody habit for centuries!
Learn some fucking history, twit.
Israel in particular now squats on land we stole from them (not that we ever got any thanks from the Zionists for that, quite the opposite).

GCooper said...

Anonymous writes: "....but facts are facts..."

Or not, if you insist on believing the twittering of bien pensant liberals.

The much-touted 'arabic' numerical system was invented in India, as was much else in this fabled caliphate.

Indeed, the more you investigate the subject, the less it appears Islamic societies invented and the more they stole from the pre-Islamic people they put to the sword.

Dick the Prick said...

Dunno about you buy Del Boy would well have approved; release an innocent dying man for potentially lucrative trade deald - luvely jubbly. Only thing is Labour are spinning that it was all the SNPs fault is a bit worrying if they shore up their vote at the SNPs expense. Could Jim fix it so that the Scots get full independence?

Anonymous said...

@John in Cheshire

In order to strike back at Muslims, you want "chemical extirpation" of Lebanon.... Lebanon. Lebanon, the only predominantly Christian country in the Middle East.

Thanks for showing once again the level of knowledge, understanding and nuance that I've come to expect from you. Keep on keepin' on, Johnny. Just keep on keepin' on.

Anonymous said...

But in 700 AD the average brit was living in a mudhut. Thems the facts Im afraid.

Yes, "thems the facts" if you happen to be living in the 1950s and still buying into the myth of "The Dark Ages". Amongst those of us who've actually studied the subject, the fantasy that Europe in the Late Antique and Early Medieval Periods was a mud-splattered dung-fest full of illiterate peasants eternally fearing that the sky would fall on their heads has been consigned to the dustbin.

You might care to consider, for example, the enormous debt that Islamic civilisation (in its Arab, Moorish and Turkish subsets - and the three, for your information, were radically different) owed to Graeco-Roman antiquity and to the Byzantine Empire. I note that when people like you try to resurrect the old fantasies about Early Medieval Europe, you always leave the Byzantines out of the equation, perhaps because their civilisation (far more sophisticated than anything the Arabs ever developed) proves the lie of your own claims.

By the way, your contention that the alphabet was invented by Arabs is simply incomprehensible. Our alphabet is the Roman alphabet which was adopted by the Romans from the Etruscan alphabet which, in turn, was adopted from the Greek alphabet. The same Greeks, in fact, who made so many of the discoveries now claimed for the Arabs by ignoramuses like yourself; the same Greeks whose Great Library in Alexandria was burnt down by the wonderful intelligent liberal Muslims, the single greatest loss of knowledge in the history of the human race.

Finally, learn to spell and punctuate, you fuckwit. Then die of AIDS in great pain.

Phoebe said...

....and if you want to further your eduction on Islam and muslims, you will find much to enlighten you here:

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/11102/sec_id/11102

Guthrum said...

But in 700 AD the average brit was living in a mudhut. Thems the facts Im afraid.

I think you need to get over to Sutton Hoo, Cognesbury and Glastonbury

Anonymous said...

The aristocrats of any society are not average Guthrum, so however wonderful Sutton Hoo is, its not the average.

In the museum in Hong Kong they quietly show the Chinese and Indians to have had advanced mathematics subsequently "discovered" by Newton. And that was before we gave it back to China ( having taken it in the first place protecting a drug trade!).

The Arabs kept the Greek knowledge alive. That's common knowledge. Crusaders on their way to liberate the holy land slaughtered Byzantium's inhabitants - Christians I believe mostly. How enlightened of them.

Phoebe, I clicked your link. I don't know the veracity. I know some people believe that there were no gas chambers, and still others vote Liebour. The internet is full of cranks.

But I must thank your contributor for directing me to search for current thoughts about the dark ages in the UK. I have spent several pleasant hours now reading of the construction methods favoured before the Norman Invasion. I would have laboured in ignorance without your intemperate intrusion. Thank you sir.

The less hot headed may be interested in this I found too

http://rencesvals.blogspot.com/2008/12/by-nicholas-wansbutter-esq.html

Anonymous said...

In balance to Phoebe's link, check out this religion:
http://www.libreopinion.com/members/standarteslc/jewishquestion01.html

caesars wife said...

A very interesting qestion OH !

Islam for many centuries stayed in its pre second crusades areas , quietly moving tents and herding goats and not advancing very much .This by enlarge was thanks to Christendom which had come to see Islam as a bit wrong on the new testament which they all thought was worth preserving .

The steam ship enabled fare paying passenger transit and faster trade. The technological advanced europeans then went about trade and so the ports of the european empires became national and international markets , add the telegraph and you have international finance (victorian era was quite exciting) .With trade came the protection of interests and so large transportable armies.
At about the time we had killed all the whales for oil for lighting , some black smelly stuff ouzing out of the ground where no plants grew , was found contain many substances that could burn, and was better than the substances they got from coal .
Mr Daimler and Mr Benz perfected the diesel engine and once powered flight was achieved , the black smelly stuff suddenly became the must have resource.

Unfortunatly a decade before WW1 some thinkers had got hold of Darwins theories and interpreted them as the strongest wins and so the politics of state organisation was born , one group (the communists) saw this as top down centralised state , and shooting all those that wanted personal wealth , by pointing out that the rich were educated to become richer. they developed rule by state fear and terror.
The other group was the Nazis who used darwin to make the case that certain racial groups and cultures were a waste of time and that they should invade them , subjugate them and where necessary exterminate them , whilst at the same time using there resources for promotion of an ordered society in uniform , and developing the theory that evolution had reached its pinnacle of human perfection , in the people of bavria/arean.

For those readers who are anti religion , it is worth mentioning that the most deaths have been caused by non religous ideaologies.

For me it has been the influence of both these ideaologies on islam courtesy of them sitting on the most oil , you can see elements of both communism in talban/baathest thinking and nazi thinking in al queda , alas interpreted by clerics to a mass uneducated population , as resonating with the Quoran .It is mix of wonk ill thought ,western ideaolgies to a violent and hard line theocracy , as well as wealth , greed and continued poor education .

If Thomas Jefferson had got to the middle east before marx and goerbals things might have been different or if Hitler hadnt wiped out 1000yrs of jewish european cullture , but those are big ifs .

An uprising in egypt in 1960 resulted in a brutal repression aided by the west to avoid any more suez troubles , One of the group who was aressted tried and imprisoned was a certain Mullar Oma, who we now understand to have been the spirtual leader and now No2 of Al que Adeda.

But what a waste of time and resources and people communism turns out to have been . Do hope broon is reading .

tony,gordon,peter,george,obama-all fookin liars! said...

NO WONDER WE LIVE IN A WORLD OF SHIT....constant arguing on here about things that are 1000+ years old!

ffs!!!!!!

anyway -it would seem that as usual things are not as they are presented to us-the proles........

++++++



“Former Labor MP Tam Dalyell and Edinburgh law professor Robert Black urged the Scottish and UK governments to answer reports there is evidence Abu Nidal, aka Hasan Sabri al-Banna, was a U.S. agent,” the Scotsman reported on October 27, 2008. “They have long believed Abu Nidal, who died in Iraq in 2002, and his Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine General Command were responsible for co-ordinating the bomb that blew up Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie on 21 December, 1988 with the loss of 270 lives.”

“Intelligence reports, said to have been drawn up for Saddam Hussein’s security services, said Kuwaitis had asked Abu Nidal, whose real name was Sabri al-Banna, to find out if al-Qaeda was present in Iraq,” David Maddox wrote for the newspaper. The reports referred to Abu Nidal’s “collusion with both the American and Kuwaiti intelligence apparatuses in co-ordination with Egyptian intelligence.”

MP Dalyell said the reports added weight to the theory that Lockerbie was a “tit-for-tat” attack for the shooting down of an Iranian passenger airliner by the warship USS Vincennes in 1988, and was allowed by the U.S. administration.

He said the claims that Abu Nidal was working for the Americans would explain some of the mysteries that surrounded the Lockerbie outrage. These included a notice that went up at the American embassy in Moscow warning diplomats not to travel on Pan Am flights, and senior South African figures being “hauled off” the plane before its final flight.

Expendable students replaced the diplomats on the doomed flight.

“If the American public had known of a link with Abu Nidal, and had known that the US government knew enough to pull VIPs off the plane and let home-going students take their place, there would have been fury at a time of transition between the presidencies of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Senior,” Dalyell and Black explained.

In May of 2000, a gag order added weight to the theory that Libya was not behind the Lockerbie bombing. Dr. Richard Fuisz, a CIA agent and a potential key trial witness, was gagged by the U.S. government under state secrecy laws and faced 10 years in prison if he revealed any information about the terrorist attack, the Sunday Herald reported. Fuisz, a multi-millionaire businessman and pharmaceutical researcher, was, according to U.S. intelligence sources, the CIA’s key operative in the Syrian capital Damascus during the 1980s where he also had business interests.Nidal was either killed by the Iraqi secret police for his role as an American double agent or he committed suicide after the Iraqis learned of his betrayal, according to the Independent.

Respected Middle East expert and author of Abu Nidal: A Gun For Hire suggests Nidal also worked for the Israeli Mossad.

In 2003, it was reported by Gordon Thomas of The American Free Press that Bill Clinton’s close friend — the billionaire fugitive from justice, Marc Rich, who had personal knowledge of the identity of the Israeli spy in the White House known as “Mega” – played a crucial role in helping the BCCI arrange for Nidal to receive “hundreds of millions of dollars for illegal arms transactions in an effort to persuade its wealthy Middle East backers that the bank was staunchly pro-Arab.” This evidence was presented to the Senate Judiciary Committee in Jan 2003.


“British weapons secretly destined for Abu Nidal were financed through BCCI offices and shipped under export documents that Marc Rich knew to be phony. My role at the bank was to handle the Nidal account. I later became a spy for the CIA and MI6,” Ghassan Quassem, who was a senior officer with BCCI for nearly two decades, said in a sworn affidavit.
++++++++++++++++++++
those that 'protect us seem to be our enemies

Anonymous said...

The Arabs kept the Greek knowledge alive. That's common knowledge.

No, it's a common misconception. The Arabs translates many Greek texts into Arabic and passed it off as their own. The Arabs also destroyed huge quantities of Greek knowledge when they burnt the Library of Alexandria (this, fyi, is why Galen's medical treatises only survive in Arabic and Hindi translations - the Arabs destroyed the originals).

The Byzantines, not the Arabs, were responsible for the preservation of pretty much the entire corpus of the Greek classics. Even then, the fact is that classical texts, both Greek and Latin, were preserved throughout Europe from the Late Antique period onwards and were subsequently rediscovered by the renaissance humanists from the fourteenth century onwards.

Crusaders on their way to liberate the holy land slaughtered Byzantium's inhabitants

Bullshit. You're an uneducated imbecile and, as a result, you're conflating the First Crusade (to liberate the Holy Land) with the so-called "Fourth Crusade" (not a crusade at all but an attempt by Enrico Dandolo's Venice to manipulate the Frankish and German military castes into smashing Constantinople's defences so as to allow Venice greater access to Black Sea trade).

How enlightened of them.

No, for real enlightenment we have to turn to the religious genocide perpetrated by the Muslims.

Frank Davis said...

The Arabs also destroyed huge quantities of Greek knowledge when they burnt the Library of Alexandria

But that was the third time it was burned down. Julius Caesar burnt it down the first time, by accident.

Clunking Fist said...

"Extirpation of Libya, Lebanon and Iran by chemical means would be a start to returning the world to a more civilised trajectory"

haha, that's funny. You are joking right? Mass murder brings civility?

Clunking Fist said...

"Extirpation of Libya, Lebanon and Iran by chemical means would be a start to returning the world to a more civilised trajectory"

haha, that's funny. You are joking right? Mass murder brings civility?

Field Marshall Watkins said...

Anon, near the beginning of this thread said;

Calling their prophet a paedophile is not appropriate or helpful. English kings married their juvenile relatives in the past, so judging historical events with modern eyes is a bit silly if you are to draw modern conclusions from that judgement.

No, it is very relevent. MoMo was seen as the perfect Muslim, and it is the goal of every Muslim man to try and emulate his actions in every way.

That is why this view that 10 year olds are fair game is still widely accepted across the modern primitive Islamic world.

Saudi Islamic cleric: 10-year-olds are ready for marriage Note the article is dated Jan 2009. Not Jan 850.

Remember, Islam cannot be reformed, as it is supposed to be perfect, so the same barbaric practices carried out back then are still done now.

Islam adds nothing to society except division, oppression and death.

Guthrum said...

The aristocrats of any society are not average Guthrum, so however wonderful Sutton Hoo is, its not the average.

The Comparison was being made that Islamic 'culture' was superior to that of 700 AD Britain. It was not.

The average Arab in 700 AD was living in much the same state as an Anglo Saxon/Celt

David Davis (Libertarian Alliance) said...

I'd start the timeline somewhere much, much before 1917.

Probably about AD 632. Or even 4BC.

All these modern conspirary-theorists who hate the Americans forget what a multicentury palaver it was to actually _get-to-generate_ some Americans who could manipulate world events in the first place!

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