Monday, 29 December 2008

Let's Rumble


Map updated courtesy of Chris Gilmour
Discuss.
Best Quote so far from wonkotsane:
"like taking a shotgun to your neighbours kids for throwing stones at your conservatory that you've built in their back garden."


hat tip Polaris

206 comments:

1 – 200 of 206   Newer›   Newest»
Craig said...

Am I the only person in the world that considers the acts of Israel to be those of a bully acting both with the backing of the "parents" (the US, predominantly) who has the chutzpah (see what I did there?) to be cry "Holocaust" and "anti-Semite" whenever suggestions are made that would paint it to be less than a sparkling beacon of humanity?

In short, and to paraphrase, should the tag line be "Israel means never having to say you're sorry"?

Anonymous said...

Nice one OH! A picture tells a thousand words! No end of clueless people still root for the eternal victims of the holocaust.

JD said...

I do hope they finish the job this time, but fear it is motivated by election posturing. It's a start, anyway. JD.

Obnoxio The Clown said...

Fuck it. Hamas fired rockets into Israeli territory, even the Egyptians warned them to stop.

What did they think the Yids were going to do, turn the other cheek?

Fucking morons deserve everything they get, in much the same way the British public deserves everything they get for not standing up to their "elected representatives" and telling them to behave like adults.

Old Holborn said...

Iain Dale and I are having a bit of an argument about it

Damo Mackerel said...

Well where would you rather live? In Israel or some tip point wack job of a muslim state?

Ampers said...

I have quite a few Jewish friends, and none of us like the Israelis very much. Especially the women who seem so arrogant.

However, I can't help feel that if the Palestinians had accepted Israel and hadn't kept firing rockets into the country, things would be different now and peace might have reigned.

I was speaking to a Palistinian lad in a shop the other day and we both agreed that it is six of one and half a dozen of the other.

Many years at a party a Palestinian was arguing to all the Brits there that the Israelis should leave. I gently pointed out that once the Brits realised that if they had to leave, they would all be allowed to come here as it was us that put them there in the first place. I said he was on a hiding to nothing and he gave up.

Old Holborn said...

I have absolutely no beef with Jews at all.

Zionists on the other hand....

Damo Mackerel said...

Ampers you can't judge a nation because some of it's women are arrogant. Anyhow, look at the muslims. Does Salman Rushdie or cartoons bring back any memories?

polaris said...

Hey Old Holborn, where did you get the map? LOL

Iain Dale has just plummeted in my estimation - go get him boy!

Harrithebastard said...

Maybe its just me but the violence appears to have escalated and gotten considerably worse since His Tonyness piss be upon him, has been the middle east fucking envoy .

Ampers said...

Damo, I am not judging the nation lol... that was just an aside "in passing".

And, OH, sorry if I inferred you did, didn't mean to seem personal, just trying to put down some points from both sides.

I tend to ignore these flare-ups as the Palestinians will never stop firing rockets and will never admit that Irael has a right to exist. It's just a waste of everyone's time trying to bring peace to the area.

Harrithebastard said...

Missed an important point

Middle east ' Peace ' envoy

Mark Wadsworth said...

Shows what a great job the Israelis are doing.

polaris said...

Has Toneee actually done anything as the "Middle East Peace Envoy", other than convert to the religion responsible for the Crusades that is?

That should have bolstered his popularity in Islamic circles...

mikey said...

Anonymous said...
No end of clueless people still root for the eternal victims of the holocaust.

Fuck me! you are a piece of work aren't you?. A socialist I imagine. You utter cunt. You appear to have failed to kill yourself before lunch time, please rectify.

The Penguin said...

There is unlikely to ever be a peaceful solution to this crap-fest, too many fanatics on both sides, and too much infighting amongst both sides. A very nasty mixture of religion, power, and corruption, exacerbated by the nonsensical Proportional Representation in Israel that gives disproprtionate influence to lunatic fringes.

At a time when the Israelis are gearing up for a general election, the government ( another fractious cobbled together squabbling power-hungry bunch) are bound to take a tough line, security is always a huge issue in elections. So for the fuckwits in Gaza to keep lobbing rockets into Israel is really asking for what they are now getting.

The Penguin

crackers said...

Ma Dale's problem is that she is neither very bright nor well informed which combined with her emotional excitability makes her a soft punchbag for OH. She is more suited to Richard and Judy show than trading punches with OH.

Hamas is an Iranian organisation, their phalanx in the campaign to destroy the state of Israel. The Palestinians have been poorly led for 50 years. They are generally despised by Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Jordan. They wallow as victims. Problem is Israel would do a deal but Palestinians are not well led and so there is no strong counterparty to negotiate with.

The whole problem is a waste of time and money. Stop all aid to Israel and Palestine. THey would then have to work something out. Aid is a corrupter. Look at Africa.

Tractor Stats said...

When Iran gets round to flinging one of their rockets into the middle of it then it'll be all over.

Harrithebastard said...

JERUSALEM, Jul 15 (IPS) - Shopping malls. Schools. Medical centres. Charities, orphanages. Soup kitchens. These are the latest targets in the campaign the Israeli military is waging against Hamas in the West Bank.

Now thats what i call precision bombing.

Old Holborn said...

Whilst Mrs Dale and her cohorts praise the use of F-16's against children, in retaliation for a few fireworks being launched onto waste ground, they strangely don't want to discuss whether we could blow Bradford to smithereens using our new Eurofighters.

After all, "they" managed to kill 54 of us on the Tube and are quite happy to keep on trying killing as many of us as possible in our own country.

"She's not singing any more" etc.

Biffo said...

I always find it very strange that the Jewish nation, after the horrors of the Holocaust, should turn round & treat the Palestinians in the way they do. My uncle is Jewish & lives in Israel & while I love him dearly, I cannot find any political common ground with him. He seems to view all Palestinians/Arabs in a way chillingly similar to Hitler's views of the Jews.

And yes, His Tonyness hasn't exactly performed like a star in his Peace Envoy role has he? Then again, when has he ever performed well? Except at lying & feathering his own nest of course.

Damo Mackerel said...

Maybe if the Hamas cowards didn't use children and other civilians as human shields then the lost of life won't be as high.This has nothing to do with religion. This is a clash of cultures; Western Culture against an 8th Century Islamic one.

defender said...

Cant agree with you on this one OH.
Of course its horrible, such is war, but if you live in a glass house, dont throw stones.
Sorry for the people but thats what you get with the likes of Hamas in charge. Chuck a brick at my house and I am likely to level yours.
Fuck proportionate.

AntiCitizenOne said...

I'm personally quite happy with this. The "fireworks" do kill, not very often, but the intent is there. If the backward culture could make something that could kill more Israeli civilians they would. How do I know? I've seen the videos of them dancing after non-arabs are killed.

Maybe OH is going to decide he shouldn't be armed just in case an armed burglar isn't going to hit him with a round. After all if an inept armed burglar invaded his house, he wouldn't shoot back?

Reap the whirlwind suckers.

Old Holborn said...

I'm sure if the Palestinians had the same firepower as the Israelis, Israel would be a little less keen on a fight.

Please refer to the map for the real reasons this is happening.

The Beast Of Clerkenwell said...

I have no pork with jews (or indeed shellfish) but
FUCK ISRAEL!

Anonymous said...

I agree that Dale has gone into something he has little understanding of, based on what he heard on a nice little jaunt to Israel in the summer.

Personally, though, I find it hard to give a toss. Anyone who's met any Israelis (note: NOT Jews, Israelis) knows what a bunch of uptight, ultra-defensive, argumentative, racist, narrow-minded, aggressive arseholes they are. The chavs of Jewry is what they are, and every Jew outside of Israel knows it. The Palestinians get little sympathy from me either - yes, they were hard done-by in 1948, but they have done little since to help their cause, and an awful lot to harm it.

The real shits in all this though are the cheerleaders on both sides in the western media who go round and round in the same circles every time there's any kind of development (attacks, counter-attacks, half-arsed attempts at peace). Seriously, if they care so much, why aren't they there fighting for their chosen side?

Old Holborn said...

Defender,

Build your house in your neighbours garden without asking and see if he doesn't throw bricks at it.

AC1,

Let's give the Palestinians Apaches and F-16's then. In the next few days, we will see who is the well armed intruder and who is the unarmed resident, won't we? And just like Lebanon, they'll get a bloody nose again.

Anonymous said...

Bring it on...let the Iranian, Hezbollah and Syrian cunts intervene on behalf of their Palestinian / Muslim brothers. Then we can have the clash of civilisations that will settle the issue for the next thousand years.

Tractor Stats said...

After the Holocaust, which was inexcusable by any human standard, you'd think anyone under the loose banner of Jews would be whiter than white in their attitude and actions towards others under any circumstances but they, I generalise, have lowered themselves below the Gestapo and SS. The very people I would expect to have lead the World in conflict management and own behaviour since WWII are the Jews. Oh how every group of humans anywhere on earth so easily can sink back to a stone age existence totally lacking in civilisation. Israel have stooped to the level of their stone age neighbours under extreme provocation, if only there was an answer but we know if Brown pushes us too far many would take to the streets and act like our ancient ancestors too.

Harrithebastard said...

Biffo said
And yes, His Tonyness hasn't exactly performed like a star in his Peace Envoy role has he? Then again, when has he ever performed well? Except at lying & feathering his own nest of course.

29 December 2008 13:11

Well if there is any justice in the world , maybe for his Tonyness all the missiles are coming home to roost , the useless prick is about as much use as a Peace envoy as attempting to pick your nose with a boxing glove on .

A total cunt of a human being .

OwlHoot said...

Perhaps naively, I'd have thought it wouldn't be in Israel's best interests to drive Palestinians out entirely (as those maps suggest they have been doing steadily over the years).

After all, if they end up with no muslims there at some point then a muslim country like Iran or Pakistan has nothing to lose (in terms of killing co-religionists) by lobbing a few nukes at Israel.

In other words, Palestinians are useful human shields, even if (to Israel) for little else.

Chris said...

I just look at that map and think: "Behold! Yassir Arafat's legacy to the Palestinian people. Great job Fatah!"

Anonymous said...

I'm not about to register in order to post on Dale's site, but it might be worth asking him, since he's raised the issue of Islamic fundamentalism, how exactly it was that Hamas came to be established as a religious alternative to the PLO in the first place.

It was a divide and conquer move by Israel - I'm not a lefty conspiracy theorist, but there's enough evidence out there to prove this beyond any doubt. That's right, Islamic fundamentalism has as much to do with Israeli (and Western) actions as it has to do with self-taught radicalism.

Old Holborn said...

Damo,

This is not a class of cultures. Judism as practiced in Israel is as 8th Century as anything in Islam.

For example, if a Jewess marries a non Jew, her father considers her dead. They even write obituaries in the paper.

Children of mixed mariages are deported out of Israel when they reach 12 years of age.

More details of Jewish racial supremacy HERE

Lord Asda said...

A Palestinian is in a sailing boat crossing the Red sea. It springs a leak. He thinks, "I'll signal for aid. Maybe someone can help me"

Luckily a passing UN helicopter sees his distress and drops a lifejacket.

"Brilliant" thinks the Hamas member "I can sell this to buy guns"

Then he kicks more holes in the sides of his boat, and screams for more aid.

The UN copter drops more lifejackets but says "stop kicking the sides. You aren't helping."

He calls back "I'm letting the water out. Send more help"

Eventually the boat sinks.
He blames the Jews.

Damo Mackerel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Damo Mackerel said...

OH, I've never heard of Israel deporting children of mixed marriages. As for the whole marriage issue that is something practiced by ultra ortohdox jews but not the majority of the population. Israel is a functioning democracy none of those arab/muslim states are.

nightjack said...

Seems to me that the various cluster-fucks of factional in-fighters that gather, hands held out for international alms, under the banner of being Palestinians have yet to catch on to the idea that prodding the snake over and over again is a..bad..thing. Until they are in a position to wipe Israel off the map then the only practical effect of their random acts of terrorism is to keep giving Israel an opportunity to get better at beating them up. The Israelis have learned the wonders of the Hellfire missile allied to a smidgin of paid for local intelligence. They are entirely prepared for "collateral damage" and the court of international public opinion so expect them to keep on flattening anything that looks like a launch site or manufacturing facility even if it is sited in the middle of an orphanage. Should "Palestine" ever get together the military muscle to drive the Israelis into the sea then you can be sure they will but the more land, time, resources and power they waste in penny packet operations, the less chance is that they will survive as a nation long term. Lousy tactics and lousy strategy unless you are a local dunghill dictator looking to build up a good bank balance in a landlocked neutral country with a red and white flag.

Year after year new compromises are wheeled out and new ceasefire agreements made but then comes the greed and the overweaning ambition. Israel would rather not live with neighbours who lobs rockets and mortar shells over the border at regular intervals when they can't send suicide bombers amidst the civilain population. There is certainly a large section of Israel that wants to finish the job and invade / annexe whatecer is left of Palestine. Elsewhere, the Sunnis in Hamas want all the power and death to Israel. The nationalists in Fatah want all the power and death to Israel. Iran would like to think it can keep it's hand up the Palestinian glove puppet backside working the teeth towards death to Israel.

At the moment, if I was a betting man which I am not, Palestine gets whupped repeatedly until there's not enough left to scrape together into an independent nation state and it becomes some sort of Somalia Mk2 or a reservation state with the same bad factional leadership.

This doesnt make any of the parties right of course. The whole lot are fairly venal bastards and right or wrong doesn't seem to be appropriate when discussing which bunch of murderous thugs are going to win in a fight that all sides have been spoling for for years.
NJ

Old Holborn said...

What about Turkey?

Mixed marriages ban in Israel

Guthrum said...

Just posted on Mrs Dale in support of the view that Israel has an expansionist Herrenvolk Philosophy backed by US Dollars

Damo Mackerel said...

Yep, Turkey is not exactly a great example considering that the military are always threatening to overtake the country if the populace don't vote the way they want it to. What about their onslaught against the Kurds, who have more of a right to a nation than the 'palestinians' (who are actually Jordanians)?

polaris said...

Egypt, Algeria, Maldives?

polaris said...

Pakistan (not a great example though), but did hold elections this year...

Anonymous said...

>>Anonymous said...
>>No end of clueless people still >>root for the eternal victims of the >>holocaust.

>Fuck me! you are a piece of work >aren't you?. A socialist I >imagine. You utter cunt. You >appear to have failed to kill >yourself before lunch time, please >rectify.

Mikey, you are another one who hasn't twigged that ww2 ended over 60 years ago. Today's zionists are comparable to the nazis but with more brains. Show me ANY publication that tells the Palestinian angle of their oppression. Plenty of normal Jews today condemn the ZioNAZIs and their racist colony (by definition) of Israel. Politicians of all persuasions who have been to Gaza come back stunned. Read and learn.

Anonymous said...

There are only a few million Palestinians. There are quite a few large, empty, wealthy Arab countries. Why don't they just allow Palestinians to travel, work and study freely in the Arab world, rather than helping to keep them cooped up in refugee camps, the West Bank and the Gaza strip?

Damo Mackerel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Damo Mackerel said...

Algeria:- only recently.Incidentally do you remember the 100,000 innoicents slaughter by the islamist in that country

Egypt:- Isn't most of the laws based on Islam and didn't they lock up some of the oppostion there a while back?

Maldives:- Not in the Middle East.

Scrapping the bottom of the barrel there?

Anonymous said...

Well, Israel is hardly a shining model of democracy either - see where it's rated by Transparency International before you get all excited.

On the 'why don't the Palestinians move somewhere else?' question - couldn't the same be asked of the Israelis? After all, there are only a few million of them, and plenty of room in America, Canada, Australia, etc.

polaris said...

@ Damo Mackerel
OK so I dismissed the significance of the "Middle East", I accept there are few Islamic democracies - but there are some functioning democracies and significant moves towards democracy in others, Malaysia for example. I suspect no matter how many examples I gave you would instantly dismiss them to prove your point.
Two wrongs don't make a right and your observation about democracy and Israel is irrelevant, democracies kill people, and elect nutters!

polaris said...

And the political persuasion of the killer is irrelevant!

Damo Mackerel said...

Fair enoguh Polaris. It is very encouraging that muslim states are moving towards democracies. Democracies do kill people and elect nutters but at least we here can decide on who we want to kill us or treat us like shit.

polaris said...

And that's better because?

Damo Mackerel said...

Because at least we have the choice. I was being srcastic.

Anonymous said...

Palestinians shouldn't have to move on - but many Arab countries are in a good position to help them have more pleasant lives if they would like to. As for the Israelis, by and large, they are in Israel by choice; certainly, they too could easily be helped to move to other countries if they wish.

lilith said...

Bomb the fuck out of the lot of them. Wipe out every living creature between Egypt and the Golan Heights. That'd sort it.

Harrithebastard said...

What's the difference between an Israeli soldier and Dwight Yorke ,

The Israeli soldier new when to pull out of Jordan

Its not much , but its all i have got .

Old Holborn said...

I agree with Lilith

Filthy Non Jews (Times article)

Rob Farrington said...

Anonymous at 14.27:

"Show me ANY publication that tells the Palestinian angle of their oppression."

and

"Read and learn.".

Aren't you contradicting yourself there?

You could always try reading 'The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion', or the Arabic translation of 'Mein Kampf'. I hear that both are very popular reads among the Arab masses who surround Israel.

Devil's Kitchen said...

OH,

Let's leave aside the Bradford question, shall we? It's a little bit silly.

Let us instead consider what you would do were France – or, indeed, Ireland – to launch rockets, thousands of them, on London.

Let us also consider concessions that have been made by the Israelis over the last few years (for I notice that, somewhat disingenuously) your happy map only goes up to 2000).

They gave back (partially, admittedly) the Gaza Strip. The Knesset removed Israeli settlers from there, and parts of the West Bank (provoking the opprobrium of their own people). One might say that Israel is at least trying to make some concessions, no?

Or would you not?

I would say that they are: the things that you say that they have not allowed in the Gaza Strip – a port, or an airport, for instance – are fairly fucking sensible, no? If you were Israel – constantly under attack – would you simply allow your enemies to bring in fuck loads of weapons by boat, or allow them an easy launchpad for airstrikes?

If you are, you are a tactical numpty and I hope that you never become a Defence Minister for this country.

If the transfer of Gaza had gone well, and rockets had not been launched within three fucking days of it being "returned", then I am sure that more concessions might have been made.

As it is, the Israeli government would be fucking stupid to allow any kind of major trade route into Gaza that by-passed Israeli checkpoints because then the amount of weaponry would increase exponentially.

DK

Harrithebastard said...

Filthy Non Jews (Times article)

I only got past the first paragraph , the the taste of blood in my mouth from biting my fucking tongue became too much to bear.

Just how much of a fucking halfwit do you have to be to allow an invisible sky pixie and a book of bollocks to lead your life with everything you say and do .
I suppose having the intelligence of a fucking rocking horse is a dam good start.
Its gone way past funny anymore , fuck religion and all who sail in her , if you really wanted to 'see the light' .... then become an atheist.

Maybe the next time the all knowing Imman 'advises' that it is such a great fucking idea to become a human bomb , just say okay ... after you . lets see how fucking keen they are then.

Total cunts

getitright said...

I apologise, but this is a little long.

An unbelievable amount of crap is burning my computer screen here, from garbage about mixed-marriage children being deported from Israel, to "Palestinian" land being appropriated. It's normal to support one side or another in a war even when they're both pretty rank (I'm talking about Bosnia, stupid), but that doesn't give anyone free rein to spout a whole lot of lies. A little basic knowledge would be helpful, instead of visceral hatred from people who "have no problem with Jews" but detest "ZioNazi Israelis", "especially the women" (you wish, Max-I-mean-Ampers). You yourself, OH, referred to "Yid moneylenders" in a recent post but hey, if you're offended, don't come here, right? Right.

In spite of the the crap on the map, there has never, ever, ever been a state called Palestine, nor a nation of people called Palestinians. They exist in the same way as, for example, Yorkshiremen (among whom, of course, there are now many Muslims). Gaza and the West Bank were part of Egypt and Jordan respectively from 1948 to 1967. They, and the rest of the territory, were part of a wider British Mandate until 1948 when Israel became independent. They were occupied in 1967 when some bastard neighbours used the areas to attack Israel.

Secondly, no one ever pushed anyone out of the region called Palestine. In 1948 the Arab states warned the people living in the area that they would attack the fledgling state and that for their own good it would be as well to get out, at the same time expelling almost 900,000 Jews from cities such as Baghdad and Damascus, who had lived there for over a thousand years. Many of these people, unsurprisingly, came to Israel and instead of living in "refugee camps", they built things like houses and cities. This may help dorks who call Israel a "racist colony" understand why there are over a million Muslim Arabs in Israel today, including Muslim MPs and a Muslim cabinet member.

Now that we have the facts straight, we have to look at the realities. The Palestinian leaders have wasted 60 years and squandered every dollar and opportunity given to them. They have as much chance of getting their homes back as the Baghdad Jews do of getting theirs, but the leaders are divided between messianic religious fundamentalism and corruption on a massive scale, and the Europeans, who created the problem in the first place, pay lip service to both and prolong the agony.

But the ordinary Palestinian sees a white, mainly European, almost totally highly educated and middle-class people living across the border and he doesn't like the skank he seems to have to put up with on his side of the border where he has little chance of either a decent education or a decent job outside the "security forces". So to give his life meaning after he's watched the 15th rerun of Dynasty, he goes out and stabs a Jewish child or launches a rocket (courtesy of the mullahs) from the nearest school playground. What? You mean they didn't tell you?

It must be obvious to anyone that the only way out of this is a) to get rid of Hamas and b) for the Arab states to sign a peace treaty with Israel and pour money into setting up a state with a high standard of living. The first is possible; the second unlikely as even in their own countries, there is an enormous underclass, so we are not going to see a new Dubai or Sharm-el-Sheikh, let alone the fabled Singapore we all hoped for. But there is no point giving up trying, unless we want to see all the states in the region come toppling down and turning into new Irans.

If you have been, as the man said, thank you for reading.

Bridge said...

Take a group of bomb-obsessed Zionist whack-jobs from Europe and Russia, juxtapose them with a group of explosion-loving Islamofascits and you're likely to get fireworks. This is especially true when you use a water-free patch of desert a the melting pot, just to make sure that even a single raindrop is worth fighting to the death over.

The Zionists started the rot by moving in there in defiance of international laws and boundaries. They then thought it would be a good idea to bomb British soldiers in Palestine at the time enforcing the Palestinian Mandate during WW2. During WW2, while the rest of the British Army was fighting the Nazi menace who would slaughter all Jews in Europe.

Fast forward to today, and you see the Islamic nutters giving the same tactics a try - blow up enough people and those 'We will not negotiate with terrorists' sentiments are forgotten in a haze of concrete dust and shrapnel.

Todays attacks on Palestinians are part of the strategy of suckering the US in at the drop of a bomb. I would imagine that the Israeli government looked at the world economic forecast, saw Uncle Sam giving billions to car makers, banks and such like, and wondered if their aid budget would be cut. Nothing like provoking an intifadah from the exciteable Palestinian masses to ensure that pleas for military and financial aid to stem the tide of Islamic fundamentalism are prioritised at senate appropriations committee hearings in 2009.

Who do I side with? The poor bastards on the receiving end of the Qassam rockets and GBU-28 bombs. By and large, the majority of people in Israel and Palestine just want the madness to stop, but as long as the fascists on both sides remain in power, their lives will continue to be blighted by war and acts of terrorism.

Damo Mackerel said...

OH, that's someones bigoted comment on the times. I can't believe you would fall for that piece of propaganda tri-pe. Anyhow what about Palestinian people who have received life saving operations in Israeli hospitals? What about the Israeli doctors working in hospitals all over the work. Or Israelis doing charity work in the area of medicine? Do you remember the tsunami where Muslim/ Arab states were asking their citizens for money and promising, that only other muslims in the affect countries would receive it?

Anonymous said...

Effin hell ?!! Times news are usually censored by zionists, how did that one slip through! About time something did.

Old Holborn said...

DK,

If the Palestinians cannot trade, cannot export, cannot import fuel or even food becuase they are not allowed, then they are merely prisoners, held in absolute poverty, for life.

Rather like a Warsaw ghetto in fact. I can find you plenty of Germans who said "don't let them move, they'll only arm themselves".

Israel is exactly, and I do mean exactly the same as South Africa. They worked together on many projects in fact, mostly in genetics and arms.

David Kelly was heavily linked to the Nes Zions genetic research centre in Tel Aviv. It is working on a weapon that will target certain ethnic groups by identifying the so called Jewish (Ashkenazi) Gene. Once it finds it, and yes, it does exist, you'd better pray you have it too.

Luckily, I do.

Enemies of your enemies are not your friends - be warned.

Google away.

Devil's Kitchen said...

P.S. OH, just to expand my Bradford point: have we given Bradford their own port, airport or tax system? No. So come, people of Bradford, bomb London! OH says that you are justified.

Oh, and if Bradford had an airport, and a port, and they were bringing in weaponry from overseas, which fucking facilities do you think that we'd blockade and destroy first? The fucking shopping malls?

Or would be blockade the port and bomb the airport to stop those weapons coming in?

Fucking hellski...

DK

Devil's Kitchen said...

OH,

"If the Palestinians cannot trade, cannot export, cannot import fuel or even food becuase they are not allowed, then they are merely prisoners, held in absolute poverty, for life."

But they can trade. If they do not want to trade with Egypt (with which the Gaza Strip has a border), they can trade with other countries. The goods have to come through Israeli checkpoints, yes, but they can, nevertheless, trade.

Now, if they would like a port then I think that showing that you no longer want to fire rockets into the towns and villages of your nearest neightbour – and are thus not going to use said port for importing weaponry – might be a good first step, no?

DK

Old Holborn said...

DK, YOU are the one saying people should be bombed, not me.

Go away and have a little think

Devil's Kitchen said...

OH,

"Enemies of your enemies are not your friends - be warned."

Please don't take me for a fool. I don't particularly care about either of them but, if I am going to take sides, I will take the side of the one that I consider to be marginally more in the right.

In this case, it is the one that has been constantly attacked over the last 60 years (including three invasion attempts) and has decided to defend itself.

Because, you see, that's what I would do were France or Ireland (or Germany) to attack this country.

DK

Old Holborn said...

Israel’s rightful self-defense against unlawful rocket attacks does not justify a blockade that denies civilians the food, fuel and medicine needed to survive, a policy amounting to collective punishment,” said Joe Stork, acting director of Human Rights Watch’s Middle East division. “Gazans can’t turn on the lights, get tap water, buy enough food, or earn a living without Israel’s consent.”

So DK, you support the right of a State to act as absolute power over every individual in Gaza.

Please clarify

Damo Mackerel said...

Let me ask you this question OH? Who are the biggest killers of Arabs?

Old Holborn said...

Arabs of course

Devil's Kitchen said...

OH,

"DK, YOU are the one saying people should be bombed, not me."

Er... And your ridiculous Bradford argument? That was just you having a little think, was it?

Don't be facile, OH: either back your stupid thought experiment or don't raise it. It was neither clever nor subtle. It wasn't even analogous to the situation.

Now, either engage with your own thought experiment or shut the fuck up. Which is it to be?

DK

Word Verification: "biling". I like that: I might use it...

Old Holborn said...

Who are the biggest killers of Americans?

Devil's Kitchen said...

OH,

"This is not a humanitarian crisis," he said. "It's an economic crisis, a political crisis, but it's not a humanitarian crisis. People aren't starving." -- Khaled Abdel Shaafi, director the United Nations Development Programme in Gaza, December 2008.

He does admit that it is not a particularly pleasant place to live, with Israel blockading the province. However, the blockade only started after the rocket attacks became consistent and persistent. Do you understand that?

DK

Old Holborn said...

DK,

You support Mrs Dale, who supports "100%" the action being taken by Israel, as per your blog post

That action has so far killed close to 300 and when they invade in the next few days, will kill many more.

This action is to defend Israel against a democratically elected party (Hamas)who are throwing fireworks over the fence. A fence put there by people who now keep them in absolute poverty and total control. In effect, a concentration camp

The people who built the fence put it there on grounds of absolute racial supremacy. Not Jewish? Get out. I don't care if you used to live here, you a not a Jew, get out.

Remind you of anybody?

polaris said...

The biggest killer of Americans is Diabetes.

@ getright - Wrong: the Balfour Declaration (a British declaration, accepted by the League of Nations) formalised in 1922 defined Palestine.

Old Holborn said...

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 was given to the Rothschilds as a reward for bringing the Yanks into the first world war, thus saving us from the Germans, who were winning.

Hitler saw this as a massive betrayal by the large Yiddish community in Germany and the rest, as they say, is history.

Devil's Kitchen said...

OH,

I support some of Mrs Dale's article, yes. Because I think it's broadly correct. I think that I have made it clear that I have reservations about Israel's actions.

"Hamas says 312 Palestinians have died since Saturday, of which the UN says 57 were civilians."

So, do we believe the UN (massive friends of Israel they are, ain't they) or Hamas?

As for this...

"The people who built the fence put it there on grounds of absolute racial supremacy. Not Jewish? Get out. I don't care if you used to live here, you a not a Jew, get out."

Don't be ridiculous. You do know that there are Muslims in the Knesset, don't you? You do know that there are large numbers of Muslim Arabs living in Israel, yes?

"This action is to defend Israel against a democratically elected party (Hamas) who are throwing fireworks over the fence."

And that gives them legitimacy, does it? Fair enough. And some other fireworks are being lobbed back over the fence by a democratically elected party in Israel. What is your point, precisely?

"A fence put there by people who now keep them in absolute poverty and total control. In effect, a concentration camp"

Yawny-yawny yawn-yawn. A fence put there to protect people from rockets and suicide bombers. It's a fence that surrounds Israel, not Palestine.

Next thing you'll be saying is that that fence is evil because it doesn't allow Palestinians to go to work in Israel. And I there was I thinking that you weren't keen on large-scale immigrantion...

You still aren't willing to defend your Bradford bollocks, I see. Surely you can't lack the courage of your own convictions...?

DK

Damo Mackerel said...

OH they are not living in a concentration camp. They are not being experimented on or killed in gas chambers. Hamas is a deomcratically elected party. Yet they refuse to recognize Israel and want to drive it into the sea. At the end of the day the Palestinians (Jordanians) will have to accept that they put Hamas terrorists into government.

idle said...

A plague upon them both. Anthrax from Syria to the red sea, wait a few years and then invite a few decent non-ideological folk to start again.

I like a good political argument, but the problem with this one is that both sides are so bloodthirsty, unpleasant and dishonest that good cannot triumph.

Fuckemall.

Old Holborn said...

What Bradford bollocks?

If you support Israel flattening Gaza because they are a threat then by default, you must support the same action against Muslim fanatical enclaves such as Bradford. Bradford Muslims have killed more than Hamas fireworks, yes?

As a Libertarian, I have a massive problem with the State of Israel and it's total and utter subjugation of Palestinians.

Even now, permission must be asked of Israel, the State, if they are to be allowed to import some oil or food or medicine because they are not allowed a port, a runway or their own borders.

A Libertarians worst nightmare. I'm frankly amazed you support it.

Consider my membership of your party cancelled forthwith.

Devil's Kitchen said...

OH,

"Bradford Muslims have killed more than Hamas fireworks, yes?"

No, OH, they have not.

Libertarians support, by the way, a person's right to defend their life, liberty and property. The Israeli government is defending their people's life, liberty and property. OK?


Now, as with my questions about Bradford above, and given that we don't live in a libertarian world, let's talk military tactics.

Would you, as a leader of Israel, currently allow the Gaza Strip to have an unfettered port or airport. Yes, or no?

Please justify your answer with reference to the current situation there, and with reference to military tactics.

DK

Harrithebastard said...

Who is killing the Americans

Ronald Mc Donald
KFC
Dinkys donuts
The CIA
Bush
Crackheads
Mexicans
Aliens
Other Americans
Friendly fire
The boyz in da hood

But to name just a few

polaris said...

I joined the Libertarian party today, the tipping point being the almost unified stand from other party members in this debate. Now like OH, I am looking for a refund. How can anybody justify a super-power backed superstition based right wing state to commit genocide? Libertarian/Anarchist/Whatever we should cherish a respect for humanity, and a right to live your life without being punished to further an election campaign in a state with an appalling lack of respect for human rights. Ironically one founded in the collective guilt of the allies for the lack of respect shown to them by the 3rd Reich.

Is this a case of "do unto others?"

Not progress, not right - ever.

Sigh...

Devil's Kitchen said...

polaris,

"I joined the Libertarian party today, the tipping point being the almost unified stand from other party members in this debate. Now like OH, I am looking for a refund."

So, although I am one person, I have swayed you against the party? And there was I thinking that the point of libertarianism was being allowed to hold your own views.

*sigh*

Look, if someone can actually provide me with a decent alternative that takes into account all of the current and historical events, then I will happily concede. But no one has.

All I have seen from some is a bunch of fucking silly analogies and a lot of talk about eeeeeeeevil Zionists.

Me, I want my money back too: apparently the LPUK is now full of anti-Zionist conspiracy theorists with absolutely no grasp on reality.

DK

Bemused Wolf said...

I just want to add, having seen the Libertarian Party being brought into this, that DK, nor anyone in this discussion solely represent the views of the LPUK.

Making the decision to leave the LPUK, because of disagreements with a member/s of the party is a bit hasty.

(I just wanted to say that, before I go check the LPUK blog and forums for any official word on this matter.)

(Word verification: chast)

Bridge said...

DK

Yes, I'd let them have a sea port, it makes landing an invasion force from the sea that much easier. Look at the difficulties we encountered trying to land invasion forces at Normandy or the Falklands without sea ports.

An airport isn't needed, the population of the Gaza Strip doesn't support it, so it's economically unjustified. It's of little military significance either, it's not like Hamas have fleets of military jets waiting for a runway to land on.

In addition, by giving the Palestinians a sea port, you look like a benevolent nation to the rest of the world, but in reality what you do is provide a nice choke point. Let them have sea trade for a few years, then when they can't live without it you threaten to take it away from them. You can also build a nice military base at the port 'to provide security' and station a large force there, as per current US doctrine in Iraq.

As for unfettered access - no such thing. Customs inspections and coastguard vessels are perfect covers for gathering intelligence and seizing cargoes/vessels you don't want lurking around.

polaris said...

DK, cheap comeback - don't flatter yourself...

Just spent the last 20 years trying to make sense of our representative democracy, thought perhaps "Nihilistic Anarchist" described me, then for a fleeting moment that perhaps LPUK was perhaps a stand I could hang my hat on.

I don't believe in conspiracies, I don't believe all Zionists are "eeeeeeeevil" and I don't think Israel or Hamas are devoid of responsibility for their actions.

But this issue is important and is about bullying, this is not "David and Goliath" this is genocide; whilst we stand by pontificating on the rights and wrongs people are dying for an election campaign - on both sides, but heavily weighted by inaction.

Sure let's agree to disagree, but irrespective of any system of government or representation you want to support, we have to say that this is just wrong; the bully will chalk up more notches on his rifle butt (Apache, F-16) than any Hamas supporter, and this intervention will not stop the murder of innocent people in the future.

Bemused Wolf said...

"that DK, nor anyone in this discussion solely represent the views of the LPUK. "

Dear oh dear, I buggered that one up!

"that neither DK, nor anyone in this discussion solely represent the views of the LPUK in this matter"

"Making the decision to leave the LPUK, because of disagreements with a member/s of the party is a bit hasty, rather, it should be discussed between the LPUK's members if a position is to be defined on this.

And I just checked, no official word from the LPUK.

Now play nicely boys!

polaris said...

And girls?

Bemused Wolf said...

"And girls?"

ZOMG ROFL U R TEH GERL?!

LOLZ LOLZ!!11

Indeed, and girls too, sorry about that!

Old Holborn said...

The point being DK is that you sit on the board of the LPUK

Apart from your last ouburst where you stated that anyone who wasn't a Libertarian "was a vile cunt, who should fucking die", this one says to me that not only do you admire the State but are happy for 1 million people to live under it's iron fist after having everything they ever had taken away from them by force, again, by the State.

Er..some Libertarianism.

I'm asking for a refund.

Old Holborn said...

"Yes, I'd let them have a sea port, blah, blah, blah"

How very kind of you.

Even Orkney has an airstrip.

Anonymous said...

Just listened to the Israeli ambassador on PM.

He should be expelled from the country.

NOW.

Evil twat!

defender said...

Isreal has every right to defend itself. Whatever the rights or wrongs the govt of Isreal has a duty to protect its people from any threat or agression from any source.

It is clear that Hamas is a pawn of Iran as is Hizbollocks and Syria.
Stated aim is to erradicate Isreal at any cost.
So what choice does Isreal have, commit national sucide.
I, as a Nationalist would do the same if this country was threatened by anybody.

i hate labour said...

The Middle East is like Africa, full of intractable tribal nonsense. Let's get back to UK matters.
Tourist rate for the £1 today at 98euro cents and thanks to Snotty Brown brown, oil shooting back up. £2 a liter by late 2009!

Old Holborn said...

So if the French decided to retake Herstmonceaux or Hastngs in East Sussex, kick all the residents out and build a fence, you'd expect them to come after you with Apaches and F-16's if you chucked a couple of bangers over the fence?

All the Palestinians want, quite rightly, is a bit of their land back.

Bridge said...

Only at low tide, OH.

Bridge said...

And there is an airport at Bradford, DK: http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/

Steve said...

So if the French decided to retake Herstmonceaux or Hastngs in East Sussex, kick all the residents out and build a fence, you'd expect them to come after you with Apaches and F-16's if you chucked a couple of bangers over the fence?

"a couple of bangers?" Like you can just dismiss someone's murderous intentions as some good, clean fun. How would you like if "a couple of bangers" landed in your front yard where your kids were playing? Hamas wasn't trying to start a pillow fight, they were out to kill: Men, women, children, whoever they could hit.

Besides, if you drew a weapon on a police officer, regardless of your intentions or whether or not you felt you were being 'oppressed,' what do you honestly think the consequences would be?

So yes, obviously, if I fired rockets into the territory of a sovereign state with intent to kill or maim, I would expect them to come back at me with whatever they have. It makes no difference whether they have any "right" to be there.

defender said...

"So if the French decided to retake Herstmonceaux or Hastngs in East Sussex, kick all the residents out and build a fence, you'd expect them to come after you with Apaches and F-16's if you chucked a couple of bangers over the fence?"

If the French tried to do that they would get a fucking good kicking and they know that. Hence they dont even think about it. Same with the jerries and their doodle bombs, got a good dose of Bomber Harris in return. OH that anology does not hold up.
Thats not to say they have given up, just trying to do it the EU way, persistant bastards that they are.

Old Holborn said...

"So yes, obviously, if I fired rockets into the territory of a sovereign state with intent to kill or maim, I would expect them to come back at me with whatever they have. It makes no difference whether they have any "right" to be there."

You do the French Resistence a great diservice, Sir.

Old Holborn said...

"So yes, obviously, if I fired rockets into the territory of a sovereign state with intent to kill or maim, I would expect them to come back at me with whatever they have. It makes no difference whether they have any "right" to be there."

You do the French Resistence a great diservice, Sir.

Guthrum said...

Do not know how the LPUK got dragged into this, my personal view differs from DK mainly due to my experiances of working in Israel and people who believe they have superior rights by the dint of birth, (I also have the same problem with the monarchy)

The middle east is in my opinion an unholy mess , if you forgive the pun, but lobbing HE at each others civilians sure is not going to help.

Rob Farrington said...

OH, Israel is NOT flattening Gaza. Bit of an exaggeration on your part there, mate. Israel is using targeted strikes which yes, are killing innocent people too. Bombs and missiles do that - you might have the technology to be able to precision bomb your enemies, but that won't help any innocent civilians who are caught within the blast radius.

What are the Israelis supposed to do, though? Give a proportionate response to the rockets that land almost daily on their towns and cities?

That'd mean firing primitive, unguided rockets at Palestinian towns with the sole aim of killing Arab Muslims, then. I can imagine the reaction of world governments and the UN to that.

OH, Israel exists - whether or not people believe that the establishment of the state of Israel was the right thing to do is irrelevant now because it's already happened and no-one can wish Israel away (although Armouredinnerjacket or whatever he's called would love a nuclear solution to that) - and so surely has the right to defend itself.

I'm not an unconditional supporter of Israel; I deplored the use of cluster bombs during the last war against Hezbollah, for example. But really, what would we do in their situation?

No nation is perfect. Israel is the only nation, though, that the world's media seems to expect to not defend itself.

I don't think it's down to anti-semitism; I personally don't know a single person who's ever expressed a racist attitude towards jews.

Let's face it; it's really just fashionable to knock Israel, same as it is to believe in global warming and to think that Barrack Obama farts clouds of fairy dust. To shake your head and mutter "Oh, it's terrible what those Israelis are doing to the innocent Palestinians!" is the trendy thing to do, and proves to people what a compassionate humanitarian you are.

The Palestinians may be 'aggrieved', but they're also brought up from birth to despise anyone who happens to be Jewish. Not the IDF, not just the 'Zionist Oppressors'. The Jews.

Don't believe me? Just try googling 'farfour', and watch a few of the videos you find on Youtube.

That should tell you something about just what the Israelis are facing, daily.

For myself, I hate living in the UK but at least I don't have to live with the prospect of daily rocket attacks, as do the people of Sderot.

Gordon Brown may well be a cunt, but at least he isn't throwing rockets at me.

I'd love to chuck one at him though, the one-eyed twat.

Old Holborn said...

Defender, I think Israel will think twice about throwing their weight around in the Lebanon again, don't you?

polaris said...

@ Defender???

What does this have to do with anything? Bomber Harris/Jerries/Doodle Bombs?????

Bet you failed interpretation at school! OH was just trying to find an analogy for what is happening in the middle east for the benefit of the hard of thinking, he wasn't actually threatening French invasion, 'cos that would be silly...

And this thread isn't about Europe, have you been drinking? eh? I think so...

Steve said...

You do the French Resistence a great diservice, Sir.

I shouldn't think comparing them with Hamas is all that flattering either.

polaris said...

I have, hic'

Old Holborn said...

Oh yes,

Sderot

"The first inhabitants of Sderot arrived in 1951 to what was then known as the Gevim-Dorot transit camp. Most of these residents were Kurdish and Persian refugees who lived in tents and shacks before building permanent structures almost four years later in 1954, with Sderot becoming the westernmost of the development towns in the northern Negev. In the 1961 census, the percentage of North African immigrants, mostly from Morocco, was 87% in the town, whilst another 11% of the residents were immigrants from Kurdistan.[4] In the 1950s, the city continued to absorb a large number of immigrants from Morocco and Romania, and was declared a local council in 1958.

Sderot again absorbed a large immigrant population during the Aliyah from the Soviet Union in the 1990s, and its population doubled in this decade. In 1996 it was declared a city."


"A number of Palestinian Arabs from the Gaza Strip were resettled in Sderot beginning in 1997 "

Who can say "human shield" now?

defender said...

OH, if Isreal was given a break from the relentless UN interference, lebanon would be speaking Hewbrew by this time next year.
It wasnt hisbollocks who stopped that fight, its the world coming to the muslims rescue that stopped it. It will flare up again.
Notice how Eygpt, Jordan, Syria, Libya, Saudi, Iraq and the rest are keeping well out of it. Last time they ganged up on Isreal they lost big time, they know the score.

Prodicus said...

Bridge: it's not like Hamas have fleets of military jets waiting for a runway to land on.

No, the jets belong to Hamas's proprietors. Hamas will be Hizbollah when it grows up.

phoebe said...

Old Holborn - I am sorely disappointed with you - I thought you were a freethinker, but you have bought into the propaganda machine of the mainstream media viz-a-viz Israel and the poor, oppressed "Palestinians" (a nomenclature which has only existed since 1967 thanks to Egyptian Arafat) big time". They are the shock troops of Islamic Jihad, groomed from childhood to hate and Israel is on the front line. We are also in the jihadists' sights. It is telling that the Egyptians are firing on those of them who are trying to break out of Gaza! Bravo DK!

Snowolf said...

Bollocks to the lot of them.

Yes, we made a bit of an arse of it in the first place, but they've had 60 years to sort it out. The balls up wasn't made by me, and I am not responsible for the sins of my father.

Time after time after time they keep running to teacher, 'He did this!' 'Well he did that!'

The Palestinians voted for Hamas. They knew what they were getting and got what they wished for.

The Israelis always vote enough extremists into the Knesset to make sure they can influence the more moderate parties.

The populations of both 'countries' ask for it time and again.

For every argument you can make in favour of one side, someone else can make an equally credible argument for the other.

Until such time as the populations on both sides of the divide decide they've had enough and slap their extremist governments down, nothing will change. We can't do it for them.

I'll just have to accept that there's nothing I can do about it, what I won't accept is that my money is spent on funding this lunacy.

Wanna kill each other? Fine, go ahead, don't do it with my cash and don't come blubbing to me every time the other side gives you a bloody nose.

Guthrum said...

They are the shock troops of Islamic Jihad, groomed from childhood to hate and Israel is on the front line. We are also in the jihadists' sights.

Not too much of a sweeping statement then !

bofl said...

these people have hated each other for thousands of years....

what a shitstain on the world the human race is.

Phoebe said...

For Guthrum:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbHVEGnYD8

phoebe said...

and:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VEcaI7zQG3E&feature=related

Anonymous said...

Beware of ANY political parties. They always put the will of their whips above the will of the people. If you can be bothered to vote, vote for independents who are free to use their conscience.

ranter said...

Normally with you 100% re the UK and its problems - but not on this. So much info from both sides - no answers. Israel was given a right to exist, it does exist, but it has spent every moment since fighting off attempts to wipe it off the planet. Hamas and the Palestinians were warned - now they reap what they sowed. Fuck them! Trouble is we'll probably get it from the fuckers over here again. If so might be time to call an airstrike or 50 on our Northern Islamic enclaves?

Dick the Prick said...

These are quite early days in the course of a civilisation really. We fought our neighbours err.. forever except the last 60 years. Fuck all to do with religion. Give them 500 years and see what they're up to. Well, they'll have taken over Blighty so I guess we'll be wiping their arses for 'em.

Anonymous said...

What morons don't seem to grasp is the fact that the Palestinians have absolutely zilch other recourse against the relentless oppression and humiliation inflicted on them by the zioNAZIs than flinging some botched up gas cylinders over the camp walls.

As for ignoramuses claiming "the terrorists hide behind children". Well, where the fuck else can they go, have a fucking look from the air at world's biggest concentration camp, courtesy of the zioNAZIs:
http://tinyurl.com/8mfzv2

ranter said...

getitright @ 15.57 - well said. I urge some of the deranged anti-semites to read this comment.

My last visit to this blog!

Aeneas said...

Peace between Israel and Hamas, a Islamic fundamentalist organisation, will never last because of Islamic doctrine of Hudna established by the example of Islam’s Prophet that means that peace is never permanent. The recent breaking of the cease fire by Hamas and the firing of rockets into Israel illustrates the general principle. The Islamic world will not rest until Israel no longer exists. Israel has a right and a duty to defend itself and a negotiated truce with those that mean it irreparable harm will be no guarantee of permanent peace.

The concept of Hudna : http://www.omdurman.org/hudna.html is briefly outlined in second part of THIS article: http://www.forward.com/articles/7477/ with particular reference to Hamas which relates to the The Treaty of Hudaibiya (628AD) : http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/treaty28.html which Mohammed concluded with the Quraysh.

Regarding immigration of Jews into Israel, it must be remembered that many of these were Oriental Jews expelled from Islamic countries like Egypt, a country where the indigenous inhabitants, the Copts, are subject to severe persecution. Perhaps people should be campaigning for a Coptic homeland for the peaceful Copts rather than yet another homeland for the Palestinans on the West Bank of the Jordan and in Gaza.

On a final point we must remember that Hamas is trying to introduce full Sharia law into Gaza: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1229868840606 . That illustrates quite clearly the sort of world view that Hamas represents.

You may say that Hamas is just a minority of terrorists but remember that they won an election victory in the Palestinians elections - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4650788.stm Such an election victory seems to me to imply that the large numbers of ordinary Palestinians do not want peace.

What should Israel do when its security is threatened, let Hamas take over the whole country and submit to second class citizen status under Sharia Law? Would you?

The Refuser said...

All the Palestinians seem to excel in is breeding and building splodydopes. They get billions in aid so where does it all go? Swiss bank accounts? The median age is 17 not a recipe for stability. I agree with getitright as well. It pains me to say OH but you seem to be swallowing the BBC leftard world view.

Anonymous said...

Oh, the old anti-semite cliche. I'll have someone for slander if the throw that one on me. I advise you never call me that in real life, ignorant cunt. Zionism is political doctrine, and one of the most overtly racist on the planet.

phoebe said...

A very apposite posting from Richard North of EU Referendum on dealing with issues such as Gaza:

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2008/12/new-deal.html

"Reviewing the breast-beating in the "liberal" media over the Israeli strikes on Gaza, it occurs that the UK government – and military – should understand completely what the Israelis are trying to do.

In this, there is a singular parallel between the situation in which the British found themselves in Iraq in 2005-6, where their base near al Amarah called Camp Abu Naji was subject to incessant rocket and mortar attack.

Starved of resources, the British Army had little option but to endure - through no fault of its own - occasionally launching punitive raids into the city in the hope of taking out some of the insurgents and affording the camp slight relief from the daily bombardment.

This culminated in the heroic but disastrous raid on 12 June 2006, when a Company-strength overnight raid into the city was met with an estimated 200 Mahdi Army fighters. The ensuing battle (wholly unreported at the time) was reckoned to have seen the most vicious fighting since 2004, in which the Army – with the help of air cover and heroic flying by a USMC helicopter pilot – managed to extract without fatalities.

Brilliantly fought - reflecting the Army (and supporting arms) at its most professional - the raid was nevertheless a strategic failure. Within days, the rocketing and mortaring of the camp resumed and was to continue with increasing intensity until, in August, the British vacated Abu Naji, only to have it ransacked by a jubilant Mahdi Army.

If the British thought this would afford relief – they were wrong. With al Amarah virtually under Mahdi Army control, the city and surrounds became the armoury and workshop for the insurgency. Thus invigorated, the Mahdi Army turned its full attention to British bases in Basra. One by one, the Army was forced to evacuate, until it was hunkered down in its one remaining base in the former Basra International airport.

The lessons from this are simple – and hardly new.

First, if someone is attacking you with the intention of killing you, you must respond with deadly force, killing them before they have the opportunity to achieve their aim. You do not negotiate - you kill them.

Second, a half-hearted response is worse than useless. A failure to deal decisively with the enemy simply encourages them to redouble their efforts. Any response should be overwhelming (what the military call "overmatch") and wholly disproportionate. The objective, as much as anything, is to demonstrate your power and to demoralise the enemy, sending it a message that it cannot win.

Third, appeasement, or the "softly-softly" approach, is doomed to failure. In the macho culture of the Middle East, this is seen by the enemy as a sign of weakness, prolonging rather than ending the agony.

It instructive that, when the Iraqis and US forces finally decided to clear out al Amarah – which they did in June of this year - they sent in 22,000 troops, supported by massive air power. This compared with the British effort, which allocated a mere Battle Group of 1200 men, and minimal air cover.

The US and Iraqi forces gave plenty of warning and told the insurgents to surrender their arms or be killed. When the troops entered the city, not a shot was fired. Enough arms to supply a small army were surrendered.

Therein also lies a lesson for the "international community". As long as they give succour to the terrorists, giving them aid and interceding with "cease fires", thus saving them from ultimate destruction or surrender, they will perpetuate the agony.

There is only one solution to this continuing tragedy – overwhelming, deadly force, sending out an unmistakable, unequivocal signal: "You try, you die!" Only when Hamas get that message, loud and clear – and cannot turn to the "international community" to protect them from consequences of their own murderous behaviour – will the violence stop and the talking start.

That is – or should be – the new deal. Anything else, as the British found in al Amarah, leads you down the road to defeat, destruction and, in the final analysis, more death and misery."

manc_ill_kid said...

Would it help if we gave them high-speed broadband, mobile phones, laptops and teach yourself SQL books?

Old Holborn said...

The Germans used to call it "Blitzkrieg"

All the Palestinians want is their land back, but the Zionists can't give it to them. God gave it to them instead.

To cure the Middle East, you would have to tell the Jews that God lied. Or doesn't exist. Either way, they won't like it. And are armed to the fucking teeth with WMD of EVERY kind.

phoebe said...

What lands back? :

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15066

Myths of the Middle East

an extract:

"...If you believe what you read in most news sources, Palestinians want a homeland and Muslims want control over sites they consider holy. Simple, right?

Well, as an Arab-American journalist who has spent some time in the Middle East dodging more than my share of rocks and mortar shells, I've got to tell you that these are just phony excuses for the rioting, trouble-making and land-grabbing.

Isn't it interesting that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland?" ......

Read it all

Henry Crun said...

Blimey, OH and Councillor Terry Kelly

Two peas in the same pod?

Old Holborn said...

Henry

I'm a Libertarian.

If someone boots me out of Farqham Hall, declares that anyone THEY like can live there but I never can and puts me in a concentration camp because they don't like me, I'll be chucking a lot more than fireworks over the fence.

That simple.

Give the bloody refugees their land back, work together and build a good State, like Lebanon.

Except they can't. God gave Israel to the Jews and if they can't have it exclusively, no fucker will.

Damo Mackerel said...

Like Lebanon me hole. Where are the Christian Lebanese? It's either the Arab/Muslim way or no way. They don't believe in comprimisation. Look at Indonesia, or Bali or Madrid or London or New York or Egypt or Algeria. The muslims are f*cking loons.

Cato said...

I've joined this debate rather late but it seems to me that if you want to live in peace then you don't go hurling rockets into your neighbour's backyard. That, in essence, is exactly what Hamas has done.
They are therefore in no position to squeal and whine when they get a few back.
They may have been voted into power but it would be most interesting to establish what the Ali el Blogs of Gaza think about it...privately.

Aeneas said...

Do Libertarians believe in Sharia law?

Harrithebastard said...

Simplistic maybe but it appears to me that if the Palestinians did not have the Jews to kill , then anyone will do as long as its someone , and if someone can not be found they will fucking kill each other .. Oh they already do day in and day out, and that goes for literally every fucking mad mullah run and inhabited fucking Shithole.

I rest my simple case your honor .

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck , its a fucking duck

Anonymous said...

If Israel is so keen on living in peace with the Palestinians why are they still expanding the jewish only settlements in the West Bank?

Old Holborn said...

No Idea

Ingram said...

How silly OH. LPUK has no official stance on Israel/Palestine. It's none of their business and this is one of their maxims, suffice to say that under a LPUK government all aid will be ceased to both sides.

There's no need to throw your toys out the pram just because you disagree with somebody (albeit NCC). However, your histrionics do keep the readers numbers up and make thoroughly good entertainment. Keep up the good work in 2009!

Anonymous said...

"persuade" the arubashim to resettle out of eretz ysrael. West bankers to jordan and hamas' canon fodder to egypt. nutralise iran & syria, and at the same time give a physical message to the islamofascists running saudi and pakistan as well. ban religious garb (muslim headscarves & jewish hassidic schmutters) in uk and give citizenship orientation to all immigrants. all imams to be graduates from certified religious colleges. sharia off the agenda. no govt support to islamist"charities". more heroic troops to afghanistan - properly equipped

oh yes - send Old Holborn to Israel on a paid-for jolly

Anonymous said...

Whatever your views on this, the reason why the Israeli's went in as due to Hudna. They want to kick Hamas in the goolies before Hamas kick them in the goolies when they're not looking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudna

Old Holborn said...

Ingram

Liberty is Liberty. Even for Palestinians.

Look at the map again. Eventually, they will be gone. Just as God promised. And Israeli firepower is ensureing. How very "German".

Israel was the first State founded solely on a religion and nothing but carnage has ensued. Pakistan is catching up and Nuked to the teeth.

If you want real peace, lasting peace, stop Israel NOW. They have no oil and are utterly dependent on MY taxes. Stop them. Tell them they need to build a country for ALL, not just Jews.

Old Holborn said...

"oh yes - send Old Holborn to Israel on a paid-for jolly"

Love to. Mate of mine was stoned on a Kibbutz for cleaning the pool on the Sabbath.

Anonymous said...

stoned on the sabbath??? All that super bekaa valley weed courtesy of hezbollah

Anonymous said...

Old Holborn - your ignorance is showing.

Thud said...

If Hamas wants peace it knows what to do...untill then fuck them and godspeed the IDF.

Harrithebastard said...

Anonymous said...
Old Holborn - your ignorance is showing.

29 December 2008 23:24

If anyone wishes to have an expert lesson in ignorance then read Kerrys load of twaddle . ignorance of biblical fucking proportions . in fact its fucking staggering .

Old Holborn said...

Thud,

Are you Jewish?

If you ain't, they'll treat you the same as a Palestinian, given the chance.

Anonymous said...

Hey thud, you think the Palestinians should spend the rest of their days penned into refugee camps relying on Israel and aid? That's the best on offer. Take a look at Gaza on Google satellite maps.

Ingram said...

OH, I don't have an opinion on the subject as it's six of one, half dozen of the other IMO. I'm just making a point that LPUK by definition is indifferent on the matter. Once we stop paying money to Israel/Palestine, then it's none of our business, unless of course they decide to attack us directly...

WB said...

Wow. OH, this is a bit of shock. Never would hav pegged you as soft in the head about stuff but you've bought the pali bullshit 100%.

Genocide, appalling humiliation, refugees, just want their land back and firecrackers? Fuck off wit that last. They lost it mate. UN mandate and 3 fucking wars. They lost it and they do not deserve it back.

You're like a missing Mitford sister. I expect you're 'libertarian' philosophy thought it was nice for the palis to slaughter the israeli olympic team in Munich in 72 or whnever. Achille lauro - perfectly normal thing, to be expected what with all the oppression and humiliation the palis face.
Sheesh. Go for it DK - we got us a genuine jewhater here. What a fucking disappointment.

Anonymous said...

"Israel was the first State founded solely on a religion and nothing but carnage has ensued."

Completely absurd. First, Israel is a nation-state, not a religious state. Its national basis is closely tied to religion, much like that of, say, Greece. The relation of secular Israelis to Judaism is similar to that of secular Poles to Roman Catholicism i.e. it's a cultural thing. Israeli arabs, by far the most prosperous arabs in the region except for some gulf states, have the position of any other minority group in a nation state.

Secondly, the history of Israel has been characterised by a series of small wars, with actually rather low casualty figures. You mention Pakistan, so let's start with that. A million people died in the Pakistani-Indian partition war immediately following independence. A little over 20 years later somewhere in the region of 2 million people died in the Bangdladeshi war of independence. In the meantime a succession of bloody coups and counter-coups has further upped the death toll. Kashmir is technically India, so we'll exclude the violence there, but we don't have to do the same for Peshawar, where untold thousands have lost their lives in interminable quarrels.

The history of Israel is in comparison rather tame and, despite wars, it has played a frutiful role in the world, especially in technological research in the fields of medicine and computing. By the standards of the 20th century very few people have died in Israel related conflicts. Analagous small conflicts happen all around the globe, for example recently in Ossetia.

The occupation of West Bank (and until recently Gaza) has its unpleasantnesses, but these are no different to any other undemocratic government. Arabs in the West Bank are in the same position as subjects of, say, the Syrian government, but have much greater civil rights. They are doing much better than the people of Gaza right now. They were doing even better before the Oslo accords handed partial sovereignty to the Palestinian Authority. During this period the occupied territories experienced economic growth and civil peace unmatched before or after. A good analogy might be Chile under Pinochet: undemocratic, for sure, and hardly ideal, but the best available alternative. It is to be regretted that this relatively benign situation was ruined by Fatah, the Israeli Left and international meddling.

It is also to be noted that the only ethnic cleanisng the Israeli government has ever carried out is that of the jewish population of Gaza in 2005. By contrast, the whole of the West bank was cleansed of Jews, including millenia old communities, in 1948 by Jordan.

The intense attention focussed on Israel exemplified by comments like "nothing but carnage has ensued" defies rational justification, certainly the gravity of the situation does not warrant it.

I say this all as an avowed pro-settler right wing zionist, but an opponent of the current military operation, which I view as a pointless waste of life to prop up a corrupt and incompetent government deservedly heading to electoral defeat. I deeply regret the Gaza pullout of 2005 for the sake settlers who were chucked out of ther homes, the people of southern Israel who have subsequently come under rocket fire and, most importantly the Gazans whose life has gone from tolerable to awful. Those ignorant and willully blind people who cruelly hang impossible dreams of a "Palestinian State" before the arbas of the occupied territories have much misery to answer for.

it's either banned or compulsory said...

Anonymous said "Anyone who's met any Israelis (note: NOT Jews, Israelis) knows what a bunch of uptight, ultra-defensive, argumentative, racist, narrow-minded, aggressive arseholes they are."
If I'd lived my entire life living in a country constantly being attacked by my neighbours and later being subjected to continual rocket bombardment I too might come across a bit like that.

Getitright got it right, as did Phoebe.

Gaza is not a real place, it is not 'country', it is a shitty bit of desert that the Palestinians ( more properly, Levantines ) have been imprisoned in not by Israel but by the rest of the Arab world and particularly Egypt because it suits them.
Israel withdrew from the 'occupied' territories for demographic reasons not political or strategic ones which is why it has no interest in re-occupying them.
For those who wish to get historical about it ( 'Palestinians were there first blah blah' ) remind yourself that the region became Muslim by process of Jihad in the 7th Century at which time the local Christian inhabitants ( and remnant Jewry )were forcibly converted.

On that subject, Dear Turkey, when can we expect Byzantium back ?

Shug Niggurath said...

It seems disingenuous to use the 'fireworks' argument without mentioning that one of the reasons for the low death toll is that there are air raid sirens when these are fired.

Also, there have been more than 1000 jewish (and tourist) deaths caused by a variety of methods including but not limited to suicide bombings, mortar attacks, quassam rockets and lynchings since 2000. That's a bit more than the 8, 15 or 23 that are bandied about by people who seem to have forgotten what was happening in Israel just a couple of years ago.

The reason the recent death toll has slowed down is that the suicide bombers, by far the most effective method used, can no longer get through the checkpoints and (zioNAZI!!!!) wall.

It's also worth noting that 16% of the total Palestinian casualties directly related to the intifada were killed by Palestinians. This does not count last years Fatah / Hamas fighting, but 'collaborators' and the like.

Anonymous said...

Israel kills 3 times as many civilian non-combatants, so your argument is a lie by omission:
http://tinyurl.com/7x3e26

If zionists didn't run much of the media, Hollywood, publishing and banking and a few Palestinians were editors of papers instead, people would know the true extent of Israels crimes. Israel was established by terrorists on purely racist principles.

phoebe said...

OH - I would also like you to consider the plight of the beleaguered and diminishing Palestinian Christian community in Bethleham in the Palestinian controlled West Bank. These muslim Palestinians are not fuzzy bunnies!:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6uXlOiqFaDg

Anonymous said...

It's either banned or compulsory said:

'Anonymous said "Anyone who's met any Israelis (note: NOT Jews, Israelis) knows what a bunch of uptight, ultra-defensive, argumentative, racist, narrow-minded, aggressive arseholes they are."
If I'd lived my entire life living in a country constantly being attacked by my neighbours and later being subjected to continual rocket bombardment I too might come across a bit like that.'

No argument there (original comment was mine) - this is a nation that is in the grip of a deep psychosis (as are the Palestinians - they have more in common than you might think, and as someone alluded to above, if they weren't fighting each other, then both the Israelis and the Palestinians would, I'm certain, be fighting among themselves).

As others have said, both here and elsewhere, Israel is not a nation with any long-term future. Although it has reached an accommodation with some of its neighbours at the governmental level, this is by no means secure - Egypt's ruling regime of kleptocrats, which we prefer to the Muslim Brotherhood, is on borrowed time. Lebanon - Israel fucked its chances there by bombing the crap out of the place. Syria - no chance.

The only real questions here are a) how long can Israel go on and b) how nasty will its ending be?

America is in deep shit financially, but more crucial than that is the fact that America's Jews are rapidly assimilating, and the new generation has much less interest in the Holocaust and Israel than their parents did (bar a few whackos, many of whom have already moved to Israel as settlers). Which leaves Israel increasingly reliant on the fickle (and increasingly lacking in influence) right-wing nutjob 'end-of-the-world will happen as long there are Jews in Israel' mob.

So, actually, we are all arguing over nothing - Israel has, like Johnny Rotten said, NO FUTURE.

P.S: word verification - inficide (how very apt)

Harrithebastard said...

The world can discuss and wring there hands from now until the cows come home it will never make a blind bit of difference , the Jews will always remain as bigoted and racist as the Palestinians, and in Palestine even the rats will have to continue to wear tin hats and overalls, from where i am standing it appears that every man and his dog from all over the world tends to look upon the Palestinians as the Gypsies of the world, whilst the Jews look upon the rest of the world as very much the same .

In my humble opinion the Palestinian people voted in dogs and have laid down with them and now they woken up with fleas .

phoebe said...

... and before berating Israel, it may very well be that the UK will be forced to take some very difficult decisions before too long:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3965637/Indulgence-of-Islam-is-harming-society.html

Harrithebastard said...

And another thing, with regards to those outraged half wits that appear to think its somewhat symbolic to burn plods hats ! no me neither but anyway whatever turns you on , if you are that fucking outraged do something useful and not too mention doing us a favor in the process , stop buying hallucinogenic drugs for a couple of weeks and save your benefits money and put your forged passports to some fucking good use , buy a bastard airline ticket and get your worthless butts to Palestine and get stuck in ... with a bit of luck and a fair wind you won't come fucking back, and take Kerry with you , now that she can claim on her expenses for .

Anonymous said...

If there was no such place as Palestine before Israel, then how come it was called the British Mandate of Palestine?

Did they just make that name up?

Interestingly the British conducted a census in 1922 in their mandate, presumably to count the WW1 plunder. 80% Arab, 10% Jewish, 10% Christian, more or less.

There was another census in 1931, by which time it was 73% Arab, and 17% Jewish.

The Ottoman Empire censuses (censi?) were unreliable, and later figures are mostly extrapolated from very dubious sources with a lot of political overhead. So the two Mandatory Palestine figures are the only neutral data we got, really.


...and it doesn't look good for Israel, does it?

Harrithebastard said...

Anon said
...and it doesn't look good for Israel, does it?

From where i am standing it don't appear too good for Palestine either , Statistics ... WTF ! they are killing each other !

Statistics , Dubious , Labour ... any order you want the answer will always be the same .

Anonymous said...

Jesus, this is my last visit to this blog. I dearly hope some Zionist puts a bullet in you, OH, you slap-headed anti-semitic fuckpig. Oh, and kills your wife and children too. Cunt!

Harrithebastard said...

Anonymous said...
Jesus, this is my last visit to this blog. I dearly hope some Zionist puts a bullet in you, OH, you slap-headed anti-semitic fuckpig. Oh, and kills your wife and children too. Cunt!

Anon ... Fucking outrageous what gives you the right to bestow this on OH ... i too am a slap head and a fuckpig according to my wife , and hopefully you can help me out here but the bullet thing and getting shot , would you agree or disagree that the safest place to stand would be where they are actually fucking aiming ?

Happy new year to you as well .

Anonymous said...

The point being, Israel is about as Jewish as London is. ie not. Having 6 million hardcore religious immigrants with a god complex turn up and forcibly colonise a country filled full of excitable Muslims who consider martyrdom to be an honour wasn't a recipe for peace, was it.

Of course nobody really decided for this to happen aside from the Zionists, who blew up anybody who saw fit to disagree.

I got no time for Israel. It was founded in violence, and it isn't like they renounced lunatics like the Stern Gang is it - in fact they gave the Lehi members a special medal.

On the other hand that was 60 years ago now, and the poor bastards there, Jew and Arab, are living with the sins of the fathers. I'm down to blaming the invisible surveillance camera in the sky.

Tomrat said...

OH,

I am, naturally, siding with Israel on this, primarily for religious reasons, but also because Iain and DK are dead right - the one thing that Hamas and the arab occupants of Gaza have in their favour is human capital and public opinion to the point at which it has now ossified and become patholigical; yet none amongst the liberal yesman and usefull idiots know or understand why.

It might also interest you to know that early this millenium Gaza's arab inhabitants had access to a port for trade; only when Mossad intelligence revealed and caught redhanded the PLO accepting a large cache of rockets and weapons from a ship was this privelege taken away from them; this incident led wholesale to the seige of Yasser Arafat's headquarters and the effective end of his control over palestine. Since then they have only had access to weapons from the Egyptian borded and tunnelled routes into several neighbouring arab states that are constantly being shut down.

No, I'm with Dr. North on this as Phoebe pointed out in her link to EU referendum; violence is the only language which Hamas speaks - there will be no swords being beaten into plow shares whilst they are in control. They have exacerbated the situation by building their key military and political positions into civilian-heavy areas; Saddam Hussein used the same shitty tactic when designing his military bases - building them under primary schools and the like.

Israel understands this now: expect a huge ground assault in the coming days or weeks, a weak attempt to minimise collateral damage and the loss of innocent life amongst the Gazan populace, whilst maximising the losses amongst the IDF (it should also be pointed out that during the lebanese incursion the IDF dropped thousands of leaflets on southern Lebanon urging them to evacuate Hezbollah strong points - the terrorist group themselves prevented much of this movement and staged several showpieces in bombed out buildings to turn international public opinion). The end result will be a period of peace, weasel words from the Arab side and hostilities being resumed in a year or so.

Personally if your neighbour wont live peaceably; you have them ejected completely.

Harrithebastard said...

Anonymous said...
The point being, Israel is about as Jewish as London is. ie not. Having 6 million hardcore religious immigrants with a god complex turn up and forcibly colonise a country filled full of excitable Muslims who consider martyrdom to be an honour wasn't a recipe for peace, was it.

Anon point almost taken, 6 million hardcore religious immigrants with a god complex ... Israel , London ... well there can't be fucking much in it ! and at the least Israel will stay at round about 6 million whilst London ... Won't

Anonymous said...

Tomrat, you're a fucking laugh. Israelis are per-capita the biggest arms dealers in the world (with no qualms who they sell to, death=Shekel$) so your pathetic whining about Palestinians being "caught redhanded with weapon shipments" on their own soil is fucking hilarious.

Palestinians should be receiving fucking container loads of the stuff to prevent your "god-chosen" Crackpot racist chums goose-stepping in bulldozing and bombing civilians with all manner of advanced weaponry including F16s.

Sooner or later the arabs WILL succeed in taking back their land, it's just a matter of time. Good luck to them. Meanwhile, reap what you sow.

Anonymous said...

Phoebe said:

'... and before berating Israel, it may very well be that the UK will be forced to take some very difficult decisions before too long:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3965637/Indulgence-of-Islam-is-harming-society.html'

Ah yes, the usual Londonistan fantasy from the 'no wonder you don't support Israel, you're too scared of your own Muslims' mob.

Sorry, I don't support either side, though it's pretty clear that the original injustice was against the Palestinians (which doesn't excuse the fact that they've comprehensively screwed it up for themselves since).

No, sorry, fuck all you pixie-worshippers and squabblers over so-called 'holy' land. If God's on your side, idiots, then how come it's been sixty years and you're still fighting? Time to get a new God perhaps? (Or fuck off back to New York?)

Anonymous said...

If London was filled full of excitable Anglicans with a god complex it'd be a warzone too by now, but we Brits are too chilled for that.

Harrithebastard said...

Anonymous said...
If London was filled full of excitable Anglicans with a god complex it'd be a warzone too by now, but we Brits are too chilled for that.

30 December 2008 16:11


Anon , agreed

Too chilled and too atheist

Can you have an atheist Jihad ! , i suppose not.

Derek Wall said...

come and join us at the protest, 12.30 Embankment this saturday.

Lawrence on a Camel said...

Before Israel came into being, was not that whole area stretching from ther sea to several hundred miles inland known simply as TransJordan and infact one country?

Answers on a postcard please.

Rob Farrington said...

Anon at 12:26 - I disagree strongly with OH's position on this and am broadly pro-Israel, and I've said so already.

But to wish harm to someone's children, as you just did? It's exactly that reason that I support the Israelis over the Palestinians.

That was completely descipable. You, sir or madam, are a pathetic piece of shit. It's easy to be a complete cunt when you go online as 'anonymous' isn't it?

Jesus.

Anguished Soul said...

You are all wasting your time with your rantings and ravings. The land of Israel belongs to the Lord Almighty. He tells us so in His word. It doesn't belong to the Palestinians, the devil or even ultimately the Jews, though they are His tenants. The Land belongs to the Lord Almighty and He will execute His Will as to who ultimately lives there. No one else. Amen and Amen. Praise Him.

Anorak said...

This is not a class of cultures. Judism as practiced in Israel is as 8th Century as anything in Islam.

For example, if a Jewess marries a non Jew, her father considers her dead. They even write obituaries in the paper.

Children of mixed mariages are deported out of Israel when they reach 12 years of age.

Always good to spot satire amid the spikes of nodding heads voicing opinion about who deserves to die more, or less.

It is satire, isn’t it?

www.anorak.co.uk

Anonymous said...

"...Having 6 million hardcore religious immigrants..."

Typical example of the general level ignorance from anti-zionists in this comment box.

If I was going to lay into, say, Thailand, I'd read up first.

Thud said...

Oh ...I have been to the Holy land and been very happy by my experiences in Israel....it's Hamas that just reintroduced crucifixion into law...not Israel....those poor palis are such a pleasant bunch...if you stand with them then shame on you...I expected better as you have earned a lot of respect lately.

Old Holborn said...

Thud,

I will always stand by people thrown off their land and out of their country by people who tell the world their god is the best.

I'll do the same for England when the Muslims finally make their move here.

And then I'll join you throwing fireworks at Mosques in London.

Anonymous said...

General level of ignorance? Fuck you. Unlike some I do plenty of reading rather than promptly knee jerk some tribalist bullshit about Jews good Ragheads bad. Why don't /you/ actually read something rather than assume the Jews are the good guys and the hairy ragheads are the bad guys like some fuckwitted stooge?

Go read the Mandatory Palestine census data - it's in the public domain. Now look at the current census data out of Israel. How the fuck did that happen? Jews must be the most fertile race on the planet, they must've had 20 babies a woman.

I got Shimon Peres' autobiography on my shelf here. Interesting read, and Peres was quite the humanist. Still, he spent his early days on a kibbutz, and while he obviously enjoyed it - a Country of His Own - its obvious that it was a theocracy in miniature, and amazingly intolerant of outsiders. He was also mad up for claiming Israel in the 40s, and didn't really care about who lived there beforehand - in fact I don't think it even crossed his mind at all, beyond that he thought the British did a really bad job of protecting Israeli immigrants. Whether there should even /be/ Israeli immigrants he never seems to have actually considered, thats just a statement of faith, from the surveillance camera in the sky.

And this is Peres, not some Likudnik, who is otherwise an admirable man.

I do feel sorry for both sides now, sins of the fathers and all, but christ. Neither side is covered with glory. Imagine the headlines out of Melanie Phillips if the Pals blew away a UN commissioner. I can only imagine the shite she'd spew. Never mind the Jews actually did that in the 40s!

Tomrat said...

Anon 15:05,

Your right, I am a fucking laugh, and Israel should be prevented from bulldozing the Arabs back to the stoneage (oops, wait, forgot; they never left there).

I've no doubt that Israel are some of the biggest arms dealers in the world, but then again, when the UN (and thus the world - dont believe for a minute the US is on their side) turns it back on them wholesale from the outset of its creation (willing it into creation I might add, but then regretting it so) you might want to develop a few weapons of your own; Krav Maga, Uzi's, the atomic bomb...

Sooner or later the arabs WILL succeed in taking back their land, it's just a matter of time. Good luck to them. Meanwhile, reap what you sow.

Wow! imagine that - if only I'd read enough about jewish history, both ancient and modern, to know that the arabs will succeed! oh wait, but yeah - they've failed, each and every time, despite overwhelming odds.

As an aside if ever you needed a reason to believe there is a God then you need only look at the existence of Israel and the jewish people; they may still reject him but he is a sucker for keeping his promises.

OH,

Still have kudos for you, but your wrong on this one; the jewish state has no more put the arab people who call themselves palestinians in their present lot than you have put Karen Matthews in hers - we all make decisions; the Gazan populaces' was to elect madmen and support terrorism, despite unrivalled international aid, public support and opinion, and they reap the whirlwind; free thought, independance from tyranny and responsibility could have been within their grasp, but like all the gifts given to them they squandered it. Wholesale. Now they reap the whirlwind.

Old Holborn said...

My case is that the Palestinians were perfectly happy until Israel decided to force them off their land, steal everything they ever had and then throw them in prison, forever.

Anonymous said...

Oh my god, we got a religious loony on here at 00:46. Well, end of argument, the invisible friend has spoken.

Harrithebastard said...

Whilst i can imagine that living in Israel or worse being on the other not so affluent side of the great wall of Israel is pretty close to being in hell, for a similar experience try spending 10 hours at a Slovakian and Albanian Country and Western new years fucking night , if you have never listened to a very pissed Albanian transvestite Dolly Parton singing ' I was born under a wandering star ' then you have not lived ... and oh the fucking horror of it all me being English was targeted to get up and fucking sing along with every other bastard bad song ... and by christ those fuckers can drink ... anything, home made slivovitz to petrol, but saying all that , i had time to reflect on life staggering home at three this morning in minus ten .. that fucking sobers you up i can tell you , anyway i would just like to give a big up to all Albanian Clint Eastwoods and transvestite Dolly Partons , none of you look anything like fucking cowboys ... or Indians ( yes there were two of them as well) and neither can they sing particularly well in fact not at all, but i will never ever forget the great time and warm welcome i received , and a special big up to all my new found Albanian friends for not nicking my watch , wallet and wife , my wife thanks you for the kind offer of a life of prostitution but feels that at her time of life finding the time would be a bit of a struggle.

So my message of peace to Israel and the Palestinians is , put away your tanks , rockets , bibles and Qurans and take up Country and Western singing and line dancing and have a group hug ... peace

Tomrat said...

Anon 00:58,

Lunatic I may be but religious I am not; my faith in God comes from a personal relationship - it is interesting to see though that the fact that I have faith is the first thing you latch onto and not my actual non-religious points about the Jewish nations right to exist and defend itself. I suppose thats a path of least resistance eh?

OH,

A few points:

1. Palestine, and the Palestinian people are a myth; the only people who could ever lay claim to the title are of jewish heritage:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pal%25C3%25A4stina&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dpalaestina%2Bwiki%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26hs%3DRpI%26sa%3DG

(Note: It is most telling that this page had to be translated and I could not find a direct translation easily; why isn't this readily available in a language half the world speaks)

Palaestina was in effect a Roman insult to the Jewish people who'd live for thousands of years; after the Bar Kochba revolt against the Romans the Emperor Hadrian changed the name of the region to Provincia Syria Palaestina (Palaestina derives from the same source as the English word "Philistine"; the root of this word means rolling or migratory). From this word modern "Palestine" is born. The only reason Israel has thus ever been referred to as Palestine is to remove the concept of nationhood completely from it; an administrative method employed by the romans to divide it up and conquer.

2. That the arab populace have longstanding claims to the land:
http://israel.net/timetospeak/2.htm

to note one particular passage:

The current myth is that these Arabs were long established in Palestine, until the Jews came and "displaced" them. The fact is, that recent Arab immigration into Palestine "displaced" the Jews. That the massive increase in Arab population was very recent is attested by the ruling of the United Nations: That any Arab who had lived in Palestine for two years and then left in 1948 qualifies as a "Palestinian refugees".

3. As to the Gazan's "prison"...I refer you back to my Karen Matthews metaphor, and the fact that since "imprisoning" them suicide bombings and car bombs (with the obvious and important exception of checkpoints) have almost evaporated.

It is a shitty thing to have to collectively punish the Gazans like this but aiding and abetting a criminal enterprise has also been an offence punishable with prison in most western countries; why should Israel behave any different towards murderers or their supporters?

Anonymous said...

Palestine: a fictional country.
Yasser Arafat: their "Great Hero" who was actually born in Egypt, and was a KGB agent. Yasser Arafat's handler: Ion Mihai Pacepa, head of Romanian Intelligence under Ceaucescu.
Yasser Arafat's "birth certificate" in Jerusalem: planted by the KGB.

Yasser Arafat's wife, the former Suha Tawil (note that Ms. Tawil was Christian.... why didn't Arafat marry a Muslim woman?) was a cover for Arafat's homosexuality. A Muslim woman would have blown the whistle on him. Arafat didn't even give his "beloved wife" the numbers to the Swiss bank accounts that he embezzled $40 billion in foreign aid to.

So-called Palestine is run by thugs... Mahmoud Abbas is a thug. They sit on their hands and blame everything on the West, especially Israel and the United States.

Give the Palestinians more and more, and they will demand more and more, and do nothing with it, just like petulant, spoiled children.

Anonymous said...

Your faith in god comes from personal relationship - ie, you are religious. you believe in things in the absence of evidence. That is the very thing 'faith' means. If you base your life and your views around your faith, then by definition you are turning your back on reason and empirical knowledge.

And in this case you are doing just that. Saying there is no such place as Palestine - well, thats odd, I see it on maps of the Ottoman Empire, and it was called the British Mandate of Palestine, so clearly there is a place called Palestine.

Then you say that it was the Arabs who displaced the Jews. There is census data that says the exact opposite. Unless you are talking about over - I can only presume that this is an example of you turning your back on hard evidence in favour of your unsubstantiated beliefs. Unless you are talking about the situation 1500 years ago, in which case the English better bog off back to Germany and Denmark and let the Welsh and Cornish reclaim their lands, in which case you have turned your back on your reason.

What points are there to really make in the face of such utter clueless shite? Thats why it isn't worth responding to them - why respond with logic, reason and evidence to a man who refutes such? No, I don't believe in your sky fairy so you'll have to do better than that.

And I got a Norwegian metalhead friend here who believes in Thor who'd like to convert you to the True Faith.

Anonymous said...

"General level of ignorance? Fuck you."

If you think that Israel was founded by "6 million hardcore religious immigrants", you are ignorant, end of story.

Old Holborn said...

I'm confused.

Does it matter if you were part of X or Y state when someone invades you, steals your house and land and then puts you all in a concentration camp?

Anonymous said...

OH, it's only a crime when it happens to Zionists. Jewish law treats Goyim differently, which is why universal ethics are foreign to a zionist.

If you had to interpret 613+ Mitzvot (commandements) for your everyday actions, you sound find loopholes to get around any given ethical restriction. That's why there are so many Zionist Shysters.

As for Madenoff, I'll believe he betrayed his own when they account for every cent of where those $50 Billion went.

Anonymous said...

Tell you what - before calling me ignorant, why don't you just read the fucking census data yourself, and then tell me why I'm wrong.

http://www.fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

Have you even /looked/ at it? Why don't you actually like, attack the actual evidence rather than reiterating your statements of faith at me? If it's so self evident it should be a piece of piss for you, right?

Anonymous said...

You sound like exactly one of those shysters I mentioned in the post before.
Israel and the Zionists ignore just about every other international agreement against them so what the fuck makes you think any should apply at all to a rogue nation/colony?
Aside from that, most of the "facts" that appear on most media are edited if not written by zionazis extremists.

Tomrat said...

OH,

I'm glad we agree:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora

And their is one profound difference between the concentration camps of Nazi Germany and what the Gazans have to go through; it is not designed with the intent to kill off the arab occupants, only to stop them killing the guards.

Anon 16:02,

Your faith in god comes from personal relationship - ie, you are religious.

Curious logic synthesis I must say; does that mean that because OH, an atheist (presumably - sorry OH, I hate presumption), has a personal relationship with his wife does that make him religious too? Your arguement is out of context.

Perhaps I should clarify; I believe in the bible, its literal meaning; what I dont accept without question are the myriad interpretations of it - I balance my own reading of it with what I know of the world and, quite literally, I pray to God to ask for understanding and enlightenment - he is not some statue or set of incantations, he is a very real being who wants to get close to his creation.

As to my "Arabs displaced jews" point; the link to OH above contains this revealing piece of text, discussing the numerous attempts that the Jewish people tried to remove the occupying Roman forces:

....These efforts, resolute but unwise, were suppressed by Trajan (115-117); and under Hadrian the same fate befell the attempt of the Jews of Palestine to regain their independence (133-135). From this time on, in spite of unimportant movements under Antoninus, Marcus Aurelius, and Severus, the Jews of Palestine, reduced in numbers, destitute, and crushed, lost their preponderance in the Jewish world. Jerusalem had become, under the name "Ælia Capitolina," a Roman colony, a city entirely pagan. The Jews were forbidden entrance, under pain of death. Nevertheless, 43 Jewish communities in Palestine remained in the sixth century: 12 on the coast, in the Negev, and east of the Jordan, and 31 villages in Galilee and in the Jordan valley.

The colonies would go on to seed the nation with a sizeable jewish populace despite the majority of jews being dispersed; Israel was razed to the ground (as, I might add, per prophecy) and much of it rendered a wasteland; only until the dispersed Jewish groups started to return to it over the 19th and 20th centuries did it start to recover, which naturally attracted immigration from other groups, particularly groups from the surrounding arab countries.

Ho hum...as for your metalhead Norwegian friend, isn't he a little depressed that in Norse mythology the Gods eventually lost?

Anonymous said...

You believe in the great surveillance camera in the sky - ergo, you are religious.

You bring up the great surveillance camera in the sky in your arguments - ie you are a fine demonstration of why religious faith not only rots the brain - which would be your problem and yours alone - but causes wars, thus making your brain-rot humanity's problem.

You bring up the situation 2000 years ago as if this has any relevance to today - ie, you are a mong (and you will be packing your bags and headed back to Denmark as soon as possible I presume).

You totally ignore the challenge you were given, because you know damn well you can't refute it - ie you are an intellectual coward.

Tomrat said...

Anon 4:22 (and 16:02 - presumably the same anonymous individual who is too cowardly to argue outside of anonymity and the legion advantage that grants you; still, safety in the mob isn't there?),

I am curious as to what challenge I have totally ignored; it is clear that the swivel-eyed lunacy and tongue wagging you are engaging in, along with the many vague referrences to the UN, census data and meaningless anecdotal platitudes makes it difficult to track down either the logic arguement or the quizzical challenge you mention I have not "met". (you wouldn't by any chance be DES would you?).

In a gesture of good faith I will rebut the observations you have made here:

Observation 1. ....And in this case you are doing just that. Saying there is no such place as Palestine - well, thats odd, I see it on maps of the Ottoman Empire, and it was called the British Mandate of Palestine, so clearly there is a place called Palestine.

I never said their is no such place as Palestine, nor did I say that there are no such people as Palestinians; I simply pointed to the earliest, and most acurate historic records and pointed out that Palaestine was the administrative term given to Israel during the latter part of the Roman empire and occupation which effectively reduced it to a map coordinate and removed its statehood; as such "Palestinians" were and are actually the native Jewish inhabitants that existed through the diaspora (of which several dozen such groups are recorded by independant sources in both roman and arab texts). The only time the arabs and ottoman empires are mentioned in this context are as occupying forces. Which brings me neatly onto...

Observation 2. Then you say that it was the Arabs who displaced the Jews

...because the Ottoman empire replaced the Roman (or Byzantine) empire as the occupying force; in both instances Israel is considered "occupied" by a foreign force. QED. The "census data" you refer to I would be curious to see; the BPM was in effect a desert which could not support much civilisation until the influx of jews began in the early part of the 20th century, which also saw an influx of arab migrants (I might also add that some of the emigration from the surrounding middle eastern states was not entirely voluntary; many jewish settlers, some having lived in those lands since the Roman diaspora, were forcibly ejected without their lands or wealth - why has noone ever raised calls for these to be returned/repaid in the UN?).

Observation 3. You bring up the situation 2000 years ago as if this has any relevance to today - ie, you are a mong (and you will be packing your bags and headed back to Denmark as soon as possible I presume).

Ah insults! the last hidy-hole of the intellectually challenged! Me, I prefer a good arguement based on arguement, reason and evidence, rather than anecdote and casual racism which is what you appear to be employing.

As to your first point on ancient history I think I have already argued that their was a sizeable jewish presence in the region which was in the majority despite 2 occupying forces trying to snub them out. As an aside at what point do we stop considering a people to have property rights? is it a temporal consideration (i.e. 20 seconds off my chair and my mate can steal it?) or is it a rights one? Is it neither? Are you in effect arguing that because they have no temporal right to the land we should live by anarcho-socialist rules? In which case how is the IDF doing anything wrong securing "more" land "from" the arabs in that place in order to secure their borders with it? After all it belongs to noone, just the strongest.

Or are you arguing for "greater international intervenion in apportioning Israel"? If so why not move back to the original agreed borders which were actually bigger than those agreed now?

You cannot have it both ways; one rule for the jews ("this land doesn't belong to anyone") and the arabs ("this land has been gifted to you by international "consensus" - a scary word responsible for most of the worlds ills today, I might add).

Did I miss anything?

p said...

http://lionheartuk.blogspot.com/2008/12/missiles-from-gaza-destroy-irans-proxy.html

phoebe said...

p = phoebe

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